Why your rich friend Venmo requests you for $4: People with more money 'struggle with generosity,' expert says
Why your rich friend Venmo requests you for $4: People with more money 'struggle with generosity,' expert says
Friend making $450k as a software engineer
I’m a software developer. If I just start calling myself an engineer, can I have 450k?
Are you a senior or staff software engineer for a multinational tech company in the Bay Area or NYC?
$450k is typical in that case.
Seniors are usually pulling around $200k in NYC, plus stock worth around $100k. Still crazy high, but not nearly $450k unless they've been there for a very long time, and the high CoL makes it worth about half of that.
Staff engineers, as in those who write 4 lines of code a year, are closer to $450k
Nope, has more to do with which company you work at
Yes.
I tried this but it didn't work 😭
Check the law where you live. Engineer is in many places a restricted profession like lawyer or doctor.
[serious] There is medication that can help regulate your flood of emotions that cause you to lash out at people.
Also, I’m not sure comparing a joke about the term “engineer” to a Nazi-Defector is really appropriate. If your intention was humor, you might want to reevaluate that joke.
There was a program many years back that discussed this issue. It showed two kids, young girls, one was fairly well off and had all the things you’d expect a young girl to have and some to spare. The other was a young girl living in an impoverished nation and had a very poor family. Think tin roof on adobe walls kind of poor. She had a single stuffed animal that was in dubious shape handed down from child to child. The well-off girl had a small army of stuffed animals.
Point of the segment in the program was how difficult it was for the well off girl to share anything and how possessive she was for her material things, whereas the little girl that had very few things was willing to share her one stuffed animal quite willingly.
Wish I could remember the show. But it demonstrated quite handily that even at a young age people who had more, wanted more, and were unwilling to part with even small things vs the people who had very little.
Seems like a vicious cycle with the wealthier people. Since they can buy anything their kids need, there's no need to learn to share. It's all "yours" or "mine", nothing ever "ours".
I had to read a bit to understand what this meant because I didn't know what venmo was, but I have seen people change from being weirdly generous to making more money and fairly quickly becoming irritatingly stingy to the point of nitpicking the rounding when pennies were discontinued.
You sure they're making more money and not just trying to look like they are while balancing a fuck ton of debt? I know people like this. Appearances are everything to them.
The kind that will take food out of their chidren's mouth to buy an expensive car...
I didn't know what it was either. If someone wanted me to send them money remotely, I'd probably use Google Pay or PayPal or something. Hooray for being out of touch with the world today!
A huge reason I don't use venmo is because it just feels like Facebook Banking. I don't need status updates on money my friends are receiving or sending to other people nor do I want other people to know what I do with my money. That shit was so weird to me.
I've been using Venmo for like, 10 years? I would laugh out loud if someone asked me to PayPal them back for dinner.
“If someone does the small-dollar Venmo, it means they don’t feel good,” Bradley says.
So many thoughts after reading this article.
The first is a former partner. We both grew up in families with more than most. She always wanted to make sure we shared all costs (shared Ubers, dinners, etc). I was of the mindset that we each cover things case by case. I'll get this one, you get the next one; it'll more or less balance out. If it feels like I'm disproportionately covering more than my share, I'll let you know. She couldn't think that way.
Further: she'd never had a job and was about to earn her doctorate in psychology. She would later counsel people who would inevitably bring money concerns to her with no experience in any job other than being a fucking doctor. What the eff, I thought. I've worked in a factory, in a restaurant, in retail… Sure, I also later worked at one of the FAANG companies as an engineer and currently work supporting a VIP at a huge agency. But I've been broke and desperate at times even if I could call upon family if things were so bad that I couldn't manage. Most aren't so lucky. How would she ever have any perspective?
Finally, I don't let anyone know my monetary status. Sure, you can figure out that I'm doing ok by the new but modest car that I drive, the apartment I rent, or my home theatre system. But I continue to think of myself as a commoner because I don't have the sort of wealth that lets me purchase favors like the truly wealthy can and do. I live comfortably, not in luxury. I can't imagine being so well off that I couldn't spare a few bucks for a friend without keeping track.
I think the statement that I quoted above probably rings true, but there's likely a lot more to it. I think it represents a sense of guilt over having more than others and internally recognizing that it's unfair but not having the ability to square it.
One of the many reasons that I don't have venmo or any other form of transfer app is so people can't send me some nominal sum of money.
I'm not rich, but definitely one of the higher earners at my job. I don't want some person making less than half what I do worrying about a slice of pizza or a cup of coffee.
To note: This is also not something I gloat over or continuously remind people of or any such thing. I'm just happy to have the resources to be able to bring the smallest smidgen of "make your day a little less shitty"
What if you eat at a restaurant with a large party and someone puts it all on their card?
Cashish used to be a thing. I haven't touched it in years, but it could be the bridge.
"I'll get cash to you later"
If they need the money immediately and/or digitally they shouldn't have put it all on their card without discussion.
It is amazing how rich people deal with non-rich people. I managed to climb from poor to reasonable well off, but I cannot understand people who earn many times the money I get to be assholes over small money.
Last week, I took a student that I want to "groom" to work in our development department to an electronics fair. Train, hotel, and ticket were paid for by the company, but the deal was that he has to pay for anything else by himself. Eating out and other expenses are still quite some money for a student, so I paid for his meals out of my own pocket and told him that one time in the future, when he will be the one guiding a student through the same situation, he should do as I did.
I understand what you mean with groom, but poor choice of words. 😂
Mentor/onboard/fast track, or any other would have sounded better. Groom just sounded like you wanted to fuck him.
Or they're Dutch. Seriously we'll send you a venmo (tikkie) for 3 cents.
Austin Powers warned us
There's this joke about how dutch people will spend €5 in gas to drive to a place where they can get gratis (free) something that's worth €2.
It really is a generic cultural thing and expecting all to pay their share even if supidly small is not at all personal.
Dutch people are great! Afrikaners are wonderful also.
I'm working poor and always have been. I never mind buying other people drinks or paying for their fares or whatnot, even if they make more money than I do. My philosophy is that I don't make nearly enough money to ever become rich or even well off, so what would it matter that I turn every cent around fifteen times or not? If at the end of the day I'm happy, and at the end of the month I'm not starving, then I'm living.
I'm suffering from enough shit already (chronic depression, adhd, etc) that complicating my life extra by tracking every red cent in order to deny myself and my family the last few pleasures making life worth living is not an option.
Of course, with this kind of attitude it's unlikely I'll ever become rich, even if I find a high-income job, since I care little about "making it grow". For all I know WW3 could break out tomorrow rendering EUR & USD near worthless. Then what does it matter how much you saved up?
This isn't any sort of real explanation of anything. It's just someone's opinion. They call her an "expert". She's a certified financial planner with no formal schooling or training. She passed a test and runs a company where she advises people who have suddenly come into a lot of money. That's her only expertise. She has no background in psychology or any information beyond "it rings true" to back up her statements.
Grew up in a resort town known for its plethora of rich people.
Rich people are near universally the cheapest group of people I’ve ever encountered.
Cool. Would you go to the news media and claim to be an expert on the behaviors of rich people for a story?
This is what's known as 'anecdotal evidence'
I'm glad that's never happened to me. They wouldn't be my friend anymore.
The article talks about how this is not them being assholes, but because if they have more money then their peers, it tends to make them feel isolated and self-conscious and fears about being taken advantage of. They even quote the expert at the end who says "They don’t care about the $4."
You would ditch a friend for struggling with someone? I find that hard to believe.
This thread got literally too deep for me to follow so I hope it was worked out.
Last I got out of it - it's a cry for help in the form of a conversation starter. Very interesting take, thank you both for that.
Also, money can be hard to talk about between friends.
I was once very poor and now pretty well-off. I'm generally happy to try and pick up the bill when I go out with friends and family because I'm thankfully in a place in my life I can do that and I remember how thankful I was for the generosity of others early in my life. Unfortunately I've found some people get offended... that my picking up the bill is some power move to show I'm rich so I've become reluctant to do that unless I've explicitly invited them to dinner or whatever. I don't want people to think I'm showing off and trying to make them feel inferior so if they've invited me or it's an otherwise group event, I assume they're paying their own way and didn't come with the idea that someone else was paying for them. If somehow I'm the one whose credit card it ends up on because the place won't split the bill, I'll let people know how to Venmo me or whatever. It's not because I'm worried about the money though.
As someone whose situation in life has flipped (not ever really that rich, just had family that was worse off) and has suffered it, I can confirm that:
“They don’t want to be taken advantage of or to feel like, ‘I have money and that’s why people hang out with me,’” Bradley says. “It feels very invalidating.”
Because it is true. The more money you have in a situation attracts the sort of people who just want the benefits of it, and if you are generous like my parents were, those sort of people will be the ones who will have no problem becoming stingy and refuse to help them out afterwards without a dollar sign. They've been trained to live off of you and they will still continue to expect to do so even as so far as to believe you are lying while they become the stingiest.
What this article gets wrong is that it isn't because they value money transactions more, it's that they attract the sort of people who only value them for it. Plus, it also skews your own development as a person because if they come the norm in your surrounding, it fosters an environment of making you a mark.
They do not have the same life experience as you, and you may very well be part of the problem is paying your fair share when you are with someone you consider wealthy (even when they tell you they are no longer doing that good or simply seems more bothered by it) offends you.
It kind of makes sense, though. I grew up a povvo bitch, so if someone wanted to borrow money there were basically two outcomes
A) We simply didn't have the money to lend them
B) We had the money and might as well help them out because we like the person and they'd do the same in turn; at the end of the day we'd still struggle, so a bit less doesn't make a massive difference
I think the answer is simply "people who have more money pay more attention to their finances in general". I mean, people who don't pay attention to how they're spending money tend to not stay rich, even when they have a high paying job. But then again, is there any actual evidence that the premise is true? Or is it just a bias that people take more notice when a rich friend asks to pay them back?
I feel like I'm the exact opposite of what this article proposed however the entire thing confuses me.
I'm not rich but relatively well off, and, without doubt in the best financial position of my immediate group of friends.
If I happen to be the one that picks up the bill I often have people chasing me to pay me. I actually think that is a problem because they feel obliged to do the right thing, however I'm unmotivated because I don't care about the outcome -- I don't need the money. This is my fault and I feel poorly for it but the reality is that after I've had a nice evening I don't really care. In terms of the debt: honestly I probably wouldn't bother asking.
The very concept of asking someone for 4 bucks seems abhorrent to me. To be clear, I say this personally; I'm not struggling to pay rent/mortgage/utilities/whatever. If you're in a position where those are concerns then please absolutely follow up.
Chasing a $4 debt won't make you rich, ever. Even if you do it all the time. Anyone well off chasing this kind of cash is deluding themselves.
Generally speaking my friends and I operate over a long term fairness principle. "Bob got the last round, I'll get the next"; they won't be even but our assumption is that it'll balance in the long term. That applies to more than just the pub.
My SO worked for a very rich man, and in some ways he was generous, inviting me along to events for example, or paying a heft year end bonus to his staff, and he spared no expense on his business. I halfway like him. But also he just wouldn't pay very well, and at a dinner for his high end wealthy club members who give him a lot of money for his products, gave a speech complaining bitterly about the downturn in his industry. I was embarrassed for him, I mean inflation is hard on most people and we're mostly all cutting way back, but he seems to have that millionaire narcissism where he is not in touch with the reality of those with less. A few dollars raise and some better behaviour to his staff and he'd likely have kept most of them on, but they move on a lot.
We brought him a cake for his birthday once because we're like that and he barely said thank you.
One time I was sitting in coffee shop doing some work. There was a group of college girls who sat down right next to me and started talking loudly. Not a big deal, I'm used to the coffee shop being loud and working with other people talking.
But, of course, I can't help but overhear their whole conversation.
They start off on racism. It's amazing to all of them that people would pass judgment on people because of their race. How foolish! Why would you generalize a whole group of people like that? Just pure ignorance.
And then, in a perfectly smooth transition, they started talking about zodiac signs and how, well, one time I dated a Sagittarius, but never again! They are the worst. And they all started agreeing that you could really judge people based on their sign, although there was some disagreement as to how you could generalize certain signs. Because, well, I dated an Aries one time and he was actually fantastic and not impulsive or quick-tempered at all, so I'm not sure it's a core part of the sign.
...
I'm often reminded of absurdity of this conversation here on lemmy when people start generalizing rich people. Thanks. It's a fond memory for me.
Tribalism
SpongeBob imagination meme
Class is fundamentally different from race, culture, or some bullshit star signs, because it gives you outsized power and influence over the world around you. Combine that with the fact that people will generally act in ways that help them and the people important to them, and you can see how wealth can both corrupt people and warp the society they live in.
It's not hard to see how rich people are generally worse people: every time they pay someone less even when they could reasonably afford more, or raise rent beyond a modest profit, they are actively contributing to the problem.
The problem with all the rich people is the power they have compared to poorer people: it means the assholes amongst them can do way more harm than the assholes amongst poorer people.
The problem with rich people who acquired most of their wealth (rather than inherit it) is that, given how modern society operates, they're a group of people self-selected on personal characteristics like lack of empathy, manipulation, deceit and abnormally high greed (also some qualities such as drive, but those are self-rewarding and don't really help others who come in contact with them).
So having a negative posture when it comes to rich people by default is like avoiding a "bad neighbourhood" - it doesn't mean you think everybody who lives there or goes there are bad people, it just means you think bad people are more commonly found there and can do whatever they want there with impunity.
If (maybe even when) our societies were fairer, the default opinion and posture about rich people would be different.
What, you can't figure out the difference between someone hoarding money, and someone being born under a particular stat sign?
And all the poor are criminals.
The key is to never go out and stay in the basement.
Then you wouldn't have to split that appetizer from TGI fridays with your friend because you never met them.
People don't usually get rich by giving money away or being bad at finances. Why is a wealthy person obliged to not ask you to pay back your share?
I'm by no means rich but I'm probably the wealthies of all my friends yet I live in a tiny house, drive a 15 year old truck and shop groceries at a discount. I'm extremely frugal and you can be sure I expect you to pay me back.
Yeah, I was finding this article funny because when I was flat broke, you bet your ass I was keeping track of $5 for a cab ride.
Also, shit like that might be $5 split for one person, but if you’re the one who paid it could’ve been split four ways. Seems like nothing to the requestee, but the requester is in for $20.
Now make it drinks. Five people order drinks for $8 bucks a pop. That’s $40, plus tax and tip you’re up to $55. One person pays. Split 5 ways it’s only $11, but for the payer that’s a lot.
That would be interesting to know. If it's a whole bunch of people, I could easily see that. We have some analogous relationships and I can't recall anyone ever getting this weird over a few dollars. Of course the only expenses that anyone covers anyone for is pretty much cash tips at restaurants, and things like attending a catered party, where it would be incredibly classless to ask people to pay for it to attend.
Are you, like in the article, afraid of your relationships becoming transactional? Do you think that if you paid for stuff for your friends every once in a while, they would start expecting it of you, and think of you only as a means of getting this free perk?
I simply don't see why anyone would expect me to pay for their anything when I don't expect that of anyone else either. If I buy my SO a dinner I pretty much assume her to pay the next time. It's simple and fair that way and that's how my (probably) autistic brain works. I can hardly justify spending 22€ on my own burger and a coke, let alone pay for someone else's dinner.
I am definitely the wealthiest of all my friends, some of whom grew up in poverty. We help each other in many ways, often not directly involving money (or only small amounts). I am currently housing one of my friends for free so he can get new skills and get a better job.
These people are like family to me. I want them to have nice things and succeed in life, and I will do quite a bit to help them. In turn, I have people who I can trust and who will help me with damn near anything.
The truest form of wealth is the community you build up around you. Once you see that, the dollars start mattering a lot less.
'Struggle with generosity' is to greed, like 'died as a result of an officer involved shooting' is to murder.
I would say there's a distinction.
"I want more" is different from "I don't want to share".
The American heritage dictionary definition 1: ^ An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth.
Seems that both fall squarely within the definition of greed.
Is it? Why? That doesn't seem self evident to me at all.
Well the definition of greed is:
Both "I want more" and "I don't want to share" are a type of greed. Even if the definition is more like needs more of something, not wanting to share feels like a form of needing more time than you need with an object. At least that's how I'm looking at it.