Palestinians plead ‘stop the bombs’ at UN meeting but Israel insists Hamas must be ‘obliterated’
Palestinians plead 'stop the bombs' at UN meeting but Israel insists Hamas must be 'obliterated'
Israel's bombing innocent young citizens is probably the best possible way to make Hamas grow stronger. What a stupid, horrible, immoral policy.
They are targeting Hamas, they gave notice to civilians to evacuate. Your 'theyre bombing the children' is just reciting terrorist propaganda.
Hamas' targeted civilians, Hamas hides behind civilians.
Your ‘theyre bombing the children’ is just reciting terrorist propaganda.
For those that don't speak fascist, I'll happily translate - Israel is bombing the children.
Neither party is in the right. While yes Israel does normally give warning and time to evacuate in this recent conflict Israel has repeatedly told civilians to evacuate to areas and then shelled and/or bomb those areas specifically evacuation corridors. There's simply isn't enough area in the strip for people to evacuate or move out of the way to.
It's possible for more than one thing to be true at the same time.
It's true that Hamas is a terrorist organization, yes.
However it's also true that the Israeli government is undertaking actions which are fitting for a genocidal, fascist government. Do you seriously thing that their 24 hour evacuation notice sent to an excess of 1 million people who had/have no power, water, heat, or communications is reasonable?
reciting terrorist propaganda.
With all honestly, especially with the massacres that have been taking place last night, where Israel cut off all internet and networks, making it impossible for ambulances to operate, it really is Israel creating propaganda against Palestinians, not very different from how Nazi Germnay made up bullshit about Jews, a lot of propaganda not too different from the propaganda being used to justify murdering Palestinian children. Netanyahu is butchering Palestinians in Gaza now under the idea of a "final solution". Israel's constant obsession with not covering news from Gaza is no different from Nazi Germany hiding their atrocities from the public. Palestinians are considered "outsiders", just like the Jews in Nazi Germany. There are apartheid areas that Palestinians can't enter even though the territory was supposed to be under Palestinian rule. Palestinians are losing their jobs, losing their homes, their shops, not much different. Being demonized, deported, ignored, tortured, all of these are things Palestinian victims and holocaust victims have together.
Watch Journey to Apartheid to understand this conflict.
They assume they have obliterated Hamas when all Palestinians are dead.
Then they will go after the Muslims in Isreal.
If that were their goal 2 million would've been obliterated already. Stop assuming they're racist and think what they can do from their perspective. They have over 200 kidnapped, mostly civilians, and they're dealing with a group which proved physically that their only goal is killing civilians for terror.
Stop assuming they’re racist and think what they can do from their perspective.
Bro they're literally committing warcrimes according to the UN. Examples include:
Bombing refugee trucks fleeing North Gaza.
Giving orders to evacuate to certain locations and then bombing them.
Using white phosphorus.
They have over 200 kidnapped, mostly civilians,
Well in that case don't bomb them because they're also dying in these attacks.
If you go over to astroturfed reddit, there is no shortage of topvoted comments cheering the IDF for bombing children by saying "they're all hamas."
The same rhetoric Hamas probably used to justify killing Israeli civilians. But it's okay if Israel does it, because you know.
Reddit is scary after this whole thing started. You have people calling for outright genocide being upvoted to the sky. People saying the old disproven zionist claims (Palestinians are not native to Palestine, etc) are getting extreme support too.
I surely hope this is bot propaganda because, if not, we're about to witness one of the biggest crimes against humanity.
This just contributed for me to steer ever more towards Lemmy where the opinions are more...human.
Opinions are more human because they're mostly posted by actual humans. Reddit and that clowfiesta previously known as twitter are clogged by astroturf.
If lemmy ever gets really big, no doubt we'll see the same here unfortunately.
So I would assume some of the people saying Palestinians aren’t native are in the americas. So does that mean all black peoples have to go to Africa and all white people Europe? Or do you go way back and all humans have to go to Africa cause that is where we originated as a species from?
I'll be honest I haven't been on reddit much aside from a couple communities since the whole shutdown, but it's not that surprising tbh. Reddit is a huge target for astroturfing, they don't have good protections against it, and Israel invests A LOT into stuff like that.
I also feel like anecdotally I've always felt like reddit was very pro-israel. I've been educated about many things because of reddit, but Palestine wasn't one of them. (when I say educated about I don't just mean reading comments, I actually do go to effort to read books etc., but often Reddit was a source of prompting for me to realize I needed to educate myself on something)
But yeah, it's so refreshing using Lemmy. Really reminds me of when I started using Reddit, but more mature.
Israel doesn't realize they're feeding right into Hamas's propaganda
Or they do, which is even more evil
They do.
But it’s okay if Israel does it, because you know.
"God's chosen people", playing God.
Interesting to me, that Israel, the country that is most well known for cyber security and big tough guys who are good at martial arts, can't find random Hamas insurgents and take them out with precision strikes. No, it has to be artillery.
That's because the "big tough guys who are good at martial arts" are little more than hype and doesn't mean all that much in a military context. These overglorified "elites" (which usually turn out to be more Jeffrey Dahmer than John Rambo) have never won any wars for the countries that employ them.
Tbh, I didn't know Israel was known for cyber security. Guess I just think of a religious country with a big ass wall... but I'm not sure why I think of a wall. Could be World War Z
Tel Aviv is pretty much silicone valley these days with development. Every major Tech firm has an HQ there and they sell a shit load of security technology outside of that too.
Most people there aren't necessarily religious. The government that got elected is though and it's dragging them to the far right.
warmongering county wages war Pikachu face
I read somewhere that presumably Hamas uses out of the date / primitive ways of communication to avoid being tracked online. I can't seem to see Hamas to outperform Israel at cyber security but I can imagine them running "off network " cables via their tunnels or even using old fashion living messengers .
edit: typos
It's Hamas. When you type in "Hammas", it makes it sound like some kind of Hummus brigade. Arabic places emphasis on double constants (where the same consonant is at the end of one syllable and at the beginning of the next) which could change the meaning of the word. In fact, I think "Hammas" in Arabic would mean "him who encourages enthusiasm", whereas Hamas means "enthusiasm" but is also short for the Islamic Resistance Movement.
That's tactics that worked well against the US. Real life and devastating in war games.
your right, shooting civilians on the other hand is a major win tho
So much for cyber security when they can't even face a Moroccan legion who hacked one of their TV channels
Israelis definitely seem pissed that the IDF didnt get word of this attack before it happened via cyber or spy channels.
Not praising the war on terror, but we very quickly identified targets and let it be known that we were invading for these specific people.
Israel's handling of this feels like they're just leaving it at war against bad guys/guys we don't like very much/people that look at us funny/Jim from down the street.
Krav Maga is not a real martial art
Fact.
They want to destroy buildings, infrastructure.
You really think they don't know where Hamas' leaders are? They know, but it's probably impossible to kill them, since they hide under hospitals in underground tunnels, and no type of ammunition can penetrate 30m deep underground without obliterating the building above it. No country in the world has faced these kinds of fighting conditions, and even the U.S had trouble fighting in the middle east because of probably these same reasons.
They're not fighting another army, with a base and well defined targets. They're fighting a terror organization operating from civilian homes.
That's because the gross of the Israeli military and intelligence is bussy harassing the Palestinian on the West Bank and giving support to the "settlers" land stealing efforts.
Hamas hides in civilian places. In return, Israel bombs said civilian places, killing everyone but mostly uninvolved innocent folks, most of those are children. And yet when they try to leave, Hamas won't let them, and Israel bombs the exit anyway.
I feel like these two guys are secretly allied to commit genocide or something.
And yes, I'm waiting for the downvotes to come in. I don't even care anymore. Just press the button.
I wonder if Hamas would exist if Israel treated the Palestinians well, giving them aid, food, water and the promise of a brighter future… including sovereignty of their borders.
Their origins go back to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, so they would probably exist as an Islamic extremist terrorist organization in some form regardless, but obviously it would be in a completely different context and they probably wouldn't have anything like the support that they have now.
Hamas might not exist, but unless you can travel back in time, that doesn't answer the question what to do about Hamas today.
Hamas is a terror organization, they've been in power in the Gaza strip for the last 17 years, they terrorize the Palestinian population in Gaza, and they desperately need the conflict to stay alive so they don't lose relevance.
As things are today, treating the Palestinians well, giving them aid, food, water and the promise of a brighter future is a direct threat to Hamas. That's absolutely not to say that those things shouldn't be done - it's just to say that these things pose a direct threat to Hamas's position of power in Gaza. That's why Hamas reroutes international help and keeps it from reaching the Palestinian population, why they stage terrorist attacks against Israel, why they torture and murder "collaborators," why they place their infrastructure in schools and mosques and hospitals, why they use Palestinians as human shields.
So lacking the option of traveling back in time and preventing the creation of Hamas, what should be done in a world where Hamas exists, has been in power for many years, and has no intention of ever ceasing its terrorism?
Ant this is the thing no one is saying. Yes what they did was bad but I can understand why they exist. Freedom fighters or terrorist just depends on your point of view.
I wish I could give you more upvotes. This is the material reason for this conflict going back to British occupation.
Palestinians who are Israeli citizens (20% of the population) seem to be doing quite well and are not murdering their neighbors or advocating genocide.
Yeah, they'll still exist I think, whether we like it or not. Regardless of how well Israel treats the Palestinians, Hamas still sees them as colonizers and wants them kicked out completely.
It's been 75 years since Israel existed as a state, they're completely accustomed to where they are now, so kicking them out and establishing a "new Jewish state" is simply gonna move the problem to a different location instead of fixing it. History repeats itself.
Isreal has been shown to have bombed targets that were completely civilian in nature with no reported Hamas activity.
Your take is way more chill than the others I've seen that secretly support Hamas. You seem honest about the situation while others lean way too heavily on one side - which is scary to think that a rational position is a hot take nowadays.
When the only winning move is not to play:
I keep hearing that bombing civilian infrastructure is a war crime. Is intentionally building military infrastructure in and amongst civilian infrastructure a war crime? I’m honestly curious about this. How can it be a war crime to bomb civilian infrastructure when it isn’t a crime to put military infrastructure intentionally amongst civilian infrastructure for the purpose of triggering “war crime!!!” allegations? It seems like a scenario intentionally intended to create propaganda when civilian deaths inevitably occur. I’m not an international law expert or war crimes expert. But it seems like utter bullshit if one is wrong and the other isn’t.
Yeah both sides are in the wrong in my opinion. I get that they wanna "retake their land from the colonisers" or something, but this isn't how to do it.
The UNHRC declared Israel's actions in Gaza a war crime, so yeah.
Putting military infrastructure intentionally amongst civilian infrastructure is also a warcrime, but Israel hasn't exactly been limited by that. They've bombed evacuating people many times, after telling them where/what route to take to evacuate.
Where else are they supposed to put it? Do you realize how small Gaza is?
Ah yes, Hamas, the 7000 innocent men women and children murdered must have all been Hamas members. The entire strip is Hamas according to the IDF. That's why its necessary to deprive children of food, shelter, water, and medical attention, all while raining hell down on them 24 hours a day. Makes perfect sense. They just have to you guys don't you get it all the palestinians are hamas, and those journalists they murdered they're all hamas too!
The entire strip is Hamas according to the IDF
The IDF issued an order to evacuate the north part of Gaza. So anyone that didn't evacuate? Hamas. And the people who evacuated? Hamas using human shields. Sadly this isn't satire, it is the IDF's actual justification.
7000... Isn't that number from Hamas? I'm pretty critical of Israel's reaction to the terror attacks myself but taking Hamas' numbers at face value and to propagate that number without questioning it is extremely naive.
They recently released a list of everyone who died in the last few weeks, with names and national IDs, numbering about 6400 IIRC. I think we can believe that. They said there were 200 or so unidentified victims.
No, it isn't. I've followed the death tolls day after bloody day. I didn't even know that hamas had made any claim about the death toll.
And even the way you phrased that "pretty critical of Israel's reaction to the terror attacks" is propaganda. Mass murder of civilians, depriving civilians of food water and healthcare, neither of those things is a reaction to anything. Those actions stand on their own. No one is forcing Netanyahu to kill children. He is happily doing it on his own.
Hamas is the governing body there, they all celebrated and danced around dead bodies on 10/7- those people should die.
They've been given warning to evacuate. Why doesn't Egypt let them in? Remember the lie that Israel bombed the crossing?
Even tho you ignore the fact that hamas was elected in 2004 and half the civilians currently alive in gaza are children who would of course not voted before they were born, how do you justify the explosion in settler terrorism in the west bank since gaza has been sieged? How do you justify the bombing of civilians in the west bank if theres no hamas there? Also if i gave you a warning to evacuate your home or die im sure you wouldnt leave so why should gazans?
Why doesn't Israel let them in? If there was free movement between Gaza and Israel all problems would be solved, right?
Well think about it. At this point, after all the trauma, how many of those kids are future Hamas? Gotta be safe.
I get the joke but there's also the question of how many kids are currently Hamas, when kids include anyone under 18 then some of those kids are already going to be actively engaged in combat for Hamas.
Or did we think that in Gaza everyone waits until they're 18 before getting involved?
If this is satire, it's not good, since this is the Israeli policy.
I keep spraying this grease fire with my fire extinguisher, and flames keep coming! No I'm not going to stop, can't you see my house is burning down!
The world is on fire and instead of working together to extinguish the flames, we're just using what resources haven't yet burnt to make more fire to kill each other with.
Hard to extinguish flames when one side keeps claiming they won't stop until everyone else is dead. There's no reasoning with that kind of logic.
That's genocide at this point, and Israel is a Nazi state.
There, I said it.
Do you know what either of those terms mean?
And you’re a moron for saying it.
If Israel were nazis, you wouldn't hear cries of civilians injured, because 2 million would've been wiped out.
No. Israel is really not Nazi Germany, who killed its own citizens out of racism. Israel is fighting aggressive neighbors who will do anything to kill them. Don't confuse the two, it's a dangerous comparison since it's so wrong.
Israel is a democracy ranked by the Economist to be more democratic than the US. All Israeli citizens have the same rights even the Israeli muslim citizens. In contrast every other country in the region discriminates against jews. Most do not let jews enter the country and have a history of previously expulsing jews. This is literally the definition of being a nazi state.
Ah yes that's why Israel is now putting all those "citizens" in prison, raiding their homes at night, allowing settlers to hurt them, allowing politicians in the Knesset to say racist things to them. Totes a democracy ROFL
These countries have no problems with Jewish people. They don't allow Israeli's to enter.
Israel is a fascist apartheid state.
Ranked higher than a country where many believe there to only be one valid party and that if the other party gains power that the entire democratic system will collapse and bring Armageddon?
That's who you're comparing against?
I can understand why they are probably afraid of being colonized and taken over.
What keeps people from fleeing? They are resisting and helping a terror regime.
There it is.
I'm going to assume you are arguing in good faith here. It's not that simple at all. There are a myriad of reasons why they can't leave.
For one, Hamas won't let them. The innocent civilians are being used as meat shields for Hamas bases. Hamas is known to guard the borders.
They also don't have the supplies or energy at this point to make the trip. Car travel isn't possible with everything being bombed out right now. Gaza is not big and the warzone covers the whole area it's not safe for these people to go outside. They are hunkered down wherever they can find. Nobody is offering to come rescue them, and even if some group wanted to, they couldn't without putting their own lives at risk from attacks or crossfire from Hamas and Israel.
I could go on, but instead I'll just post this article from the Washington post that has a good breakdown.
Because the moment they leave they will not be allowed back. Israel will take the land and settle it with Israelis.
In Gaza they serve a special role. They also store rockets and launch sites at their schools and other facilities.
Anyone know what Hamas says? Do they say they want peace between them and Israel?
They want illegal Israel settler to fuck off and respect the green line and not oppress them or something.
Ohh wait, that's not Hamas, that's Fatah of Palestine Authority, which Israel in respond is to oppress them even harder.
Read their fundamental documents. Hamas wants peace and a sovereign Palestinian state where Jews and Arabs can thrive peacefully among each other. Unfortunately the Zionist Entity has a different meaning of peace where all Palestinians regardless of being Muslims, Christians or Jews are ethnically cleansed and their lands settled by White Settlers.
You mean the documents where they call for murdering all the Jews "from the river to the sea"?
Oh yeah "Arab nation from the river to the sea" sounds very peaceful and totally not like genocide.
That part of their charter implies Islamic government is the ONLY way for peace in the region. Islam also has rules for those who don’t convert.
Edit: to be clear their laws for those who don’t convert are dogshit.
Offtopic: Before the war started, I used to think that western media1 (read AFP, AP, Reuters, and BBC) were least biased sources, unlike the corrupt media of my country.
But now I've become suspicious whenever a news regarding world affairs is published by them.
1: I don't consider other sources like the sun, CNBC, etc. since they don't enjoy as much positive reviews, and aren't as big outlets as the once mentioned above.
I don’t think that’s off topic. This is a News community. I struggle to get people to understand that all news is biased. And it’s incumbent upon the reader to discover those biases.
What is it about this article that makes you question APs credibility?
not this article(hence the "offtopic" disclaimer), but an amalgamation of news reports published by these outlets since the beginning of this month. I've come to the conclusion that they have certain bias towards Israel.
This is a really salient point.
I get a lot of news from Australian Broadcasting Corp. Generally considered to be reasonably balanced.
Just as a "random" example, this is the most recent article on the gaza conflict:
It's factual as in "this person said this, someone said that", but there's no mention very much of what Gaza's political leadership (yes, Hamas) has to say. By contrast, in the Ukraine conflict it was all about what Ukraine had to say but there were at least interjections of Russia's public statements.
That said, they're not really pulling their punches, comparing death tolls et cetera.
The first 3 are wire services. They do have staff reporters, but most of their content is generated by other news organizations that are subscribers to them. I wish more people understood how wire services work. It's part of being media literate.
Basically if I'm a subscriber to AP (true of Reuters and AFP as well) I can publish their content and edit it however I want, and I can contribute my own content (put it on the wire) as long as I use their in-house style-guides which for AP is the industry standard in the US anyway.
All of which is just to say that a wire service story may or may not have been reported by someone who actually works for that wire service. Usually, at least with AP and Reuters, it will say in the biline.
I understood that they give access to their articles to other news services, but didn't know that they themselves source it from other news servicesk if this is what you mean?). I used to think they were the primary producers.
most of the stories I read say AFP or AP either in the beginning or the end, so does that mean they published them? or just that they got it from them?
The whole shitshow is driving anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim hatred through the roof and I genuinely think people's irrationally singular focus on the issue is just a release valve for their anger, fear and anxieties about all of the other issues plaguing modern life right now.
Both countries should be tried for war crimes, fuck both of them.
Notice how no one pleaded at thousands of rockets fired at Israel. I would have supported their cause 100% had they been critical of Hamas' rockets as well. But no, it's stop the bombs when they hit us... for everyone else, fuck 'em.
You might enjoy learning about Israel’s Journey to Apartheid.
"stop the bombs"... But only incoming ones, not outgoing ones from Gaza because they're friendly rockets which are a symbol for peace! Look, we're such peaceful people who want peace!
Obviously Israel should just stop its efforts of freeing over 200 kidnapped citizens. Oh they also should pack up their bags, leave their home, kiss Hamas's feet, thank them for massacring civilians and pillageing homes, and let them take the entirety of Israeli land and start a new state called Iran.2.0.
Maybe then jews in Berlin won't have stars of david sprayed on their homes.
Obviously Israel should just stop its efforts of freeing over 200 kidnapped citizens.
Yes, freeing those citizens from life by bombing them.
Strong, brutal retaliation is what will keep Israel safe from future kidnappings long term. Significant disincentive. If they negotiate and confer a tactical advantage for kidnapping, expect more of it.
There is literally no other way of entering Gaza on foot but to bomb the area beforehand. Dead soldiers won't bring back any kidnapped prisoners.
Saving a few alive is better than adding hundreds of dead soldiers, entering their death to underground narrow death tunnels, filled with traps.
Terrorist Hamas could easily solve this by separating themselves from the civilians and hostages in Gaza. But they won't, because Hamas terrorists hate Palestinian civilians and prefer to use them as shields.
Terrorist Israel could easily solve this by separating themselves from Palestine. But they won't, because Israeli terrorists hate Palestinians and prefer to have them Genocided.
Hamas terrorists need to stop firing rockets everyday, and they need to release the hostages. Remember, Hamas terrorists are not foreigners, Hamas is made up of Palestinians and supported by Palestinians.
Remember, Hamas terrorists are not foreigners, Hamas is made up of Palestinians and supported by Palestinians.
Which is exactly why it's absurb that Israel said they didn't purposely target the civilian and their action aren't genocide. They have the same thought as you, to obliterate Hamas, they have to collectively punish everyone, young old man woman and even child, level the city into ruin, and kill as much as possible so they don't dare to retaliate in the future, while make it looks like they don't do it in purpose, and the world collectively goes "yeah, that makes sense". Netanyahu is smart.
Israeli terrorists needs to stop murdering innocent Palestinians everyday, and they need to release the hundreds of political prisoners as well as innocent palestinians arrested by them, some of them kept locked up since decades. Remember, almost all Zionists are White Foreigners, the IOF is made up of them and supported by the Yankee empire.
It's kind of cute you think the JIDF talking points can gain traction in the real world
Should have said: "Stop Hamas and save lives!"
The most important thing I've learned from discussions around this conflict is that about 95% of the chucklefucks involved are not equipped to discuss it and should shut the fuck up, myself included
Its really not that complicated: 2 million civilians can't be held accountable for a terrorist groups doings.
What do you think Israel should be doing?
So hamas' should just get a free pass?
They were warned to go to the South and most.of them did. Why doesn't Egypt let in the gazans?
It's a good thing they're very clearly not being held accountable, then.
So you would do nothing and let terrorists get away with it
Yep, people like to look and see black and white, but situation is very complex.
Is a roller coaster when you start learning more about it, but it followed:
Oh the fuck this is so complex, and the worst thing is there isn't any way solution in sight because at least one side doesn't want any compromise.
I saw comment and I believe it is most accurate of this situation. There won't be a peace until Palestinians will start loving their children more than they hate Jews.
Again, I don't support what Israeli government is doing, they do kill innocent people in the process, but Palestinians aren't exactly greatest neighbors either. The countries that in the past accepted them as refugees ended up having civil wars started by them.
the Jewish Diaspora started with the Romans. The Arabs have historically treated Jews better than Christians.
You misinformation only helps to muddy the waters.
This is misinformation. Even Hamas said they want a two-state solution. Fucking Hamas. Meanwhile Israel... Well you can look up Netenyahu's position on the conflict yourself.
Yes, the Israeli government.
You might want to continue to learn about the issue, as your comment is not exactly an even analysis. It seems more like a narrative wrapped up in surface-level analysis.
Wow, I’m amazed someone has taken such a poor journey.
It's not complex at all. Palestinians have been ejected from their homes time and again by the State of Israel. Now they've been forced out of the West Bank and are all in Gaza, an open air prison. Hamas, a terrorist group, attacks Israel. Israel indiscriminately starts bombing Gaza where half of the inmates are children. Predictably, loads of civilians and children die.
People with a soul are on the side of the innocent civilians being murdered in an open air prison they were forced into by the apartheid Israeli government. It's really that simple.
The simple reality is that islam is a fascist religion and are willing to live in peace with a Jewish state of any borders, look up the 1948 UN partition, whereas Israel has made numerous offers and concessions to peace over the year.
I promise you any thing you say for why pals are justified in their actions because of their oppression is a distortion of history, that pals have started every single conflict.
Unless your position is that the quaran was revealed to Mohamed by God and Hamas has interpreted correctly to say that there can only be Muslim nations in the world then you are supporting fascist idiotic terrorists.
Jews are the natives of the land, you can see there is a mosque built on the Jewish temple, Islam is the colonizer, islam is intolerant, and it's not just in Israel, it's in many countries
Holy fuck was this information and reasoning ordained to you by some invisible, omnipotent, and master-of-paradoxes being by any chanc e?