We don't use the word 'fascist' because we wish harm on anybody. We use it because words mean things.
We don't use the word 'fascist' because we wish harm on anybody. We use it because words mean things.
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Although by some coincidence, the people we call fascist tend to spend alot of their time wishing alot of harm on all sorts of people they hate.
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fuck that. I wish harm on fascists. lots of it. so much harm that other fascists are scared to even be associated with the word.
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That's step two or three, for sure. But the point being made is fascist isn't a word that can be applied to anyone and everyone (setting aside the 2¢ insult version) - it is a specific political ideology that one earns by their words and actions.
Unfortunately it is also complex to diagnose, particularly in early stages, especially as intelligent budding fascists will deliberately evade the formal definitions while still finding ways to accomplish similar effects.
But yes - there's also cases where fascists clearly and obviously are doing fascist things, and need to be stopped immediately, please feel free to give them a proper knuckle sandwich (or an appropriate grade of violence as the situation warrants)
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I don't call them Nazis because I dislike them, I dislike them because they're Nazis.
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No they are fascists, Nazi was the shorthand for Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP), the first 4 letters.
Fascism gets its name from Italy, Mussolini's Fascist Party, but it is the name for the political ideology as a whole, there is no Nazism and Americans being called Nazis is kinda weird, imagine if the scenario was flipped and you called german fascists MAGAs.
Thanks for coming to my stickler talk.
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If the situation were flipped, and Hitler was rising to power ~80 years after we had a massive war to take out MAGA fascists, then yeah I think people would refer to them as "MAGA", at least at first.
Nazi
meansrefers to National Socialist, but at this point in history, it can also just refer to political movements that are fascist and Nazi-like. The meanings of words shift over time.Edit: Fixed to appease a pedant.
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I don't live in America, and many people here actually do use MAGA or Trumpism to describe the local right wing people and parties because they are largely just copying America...
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What do you call people who wear red and black swastikas and say heil Hitler while doing a salute typical of the Nazi party?
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imagine if the scenario was flipped and you called german fascists MAGAs.
It's semantics. The German and American fascists all pull from the same ideological and rhetorical playbook.
Veneration of the national security state. Zealous religious orthodoxy. Obsession with loyalty oaths and ethnicity sorting. Reflexive xenophobia. Institutionalized quackery.
It's all the same shit. Same as Apartheid Africa. Same as Kuomanting China. Same as Pinochet's Chile and Milei's Argentina.
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Nazi is short for Nationalsozialist though. The party wasn't called Nazi, the members were.
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Imagine gatekeeping nazis.
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Sir that is Cody's Showdy and he is a srs journalist not a shitposter
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We sit at the feet of Warmbo, he shall bless us with his corn cream...
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Corned cream. It's cream that goes through a Corning process. The cream itself is not corn based.
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This was a very good episode.
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If you look like a fascist and talk like a fascist and act like a fascist you are probably a freaking fascist and that's the way people are going to deal with you until you give them evidence to the contrary.
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The only good nazi is a dead nazi.
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Just be more careful than Santa. He only checks his list twice cause the worst punishment he gives is a lump of coal. The guillotine is a lot more absolute in its punishment.
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MAGAts = Neo-Nazis + Fascists.
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Generally, the people who claim the meaning has changed or been watered down are fascists or their sympathizers or prescriptivists that fail to understand how language evolves. Watch them come out of the woodwork to explain how nobody is a nazi because the National Socialist party doesn't exist anymore. Buncha stupid fucking bastards.
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They're not literally gassing people, so they can't be nazis. It's only after the fact we get to ask who could have seen this coming.
You know, like they practice with school shootings every day. Desensitization is a big part.
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Correct.
Fascism has always included people who call transwomen men. That's nothing new.
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But it has been watered down. Its been watered down by all the culture war weirdos who claim everyone who doesnt agree with them, is a nazi and fascist. And its not just the left aiming at the right, its fucking everyone. Dont like video game? You must be a fascist. Dont like a movie? You must be a nazi!
Its like "paedo". That one lost all meaning as well. Even going so far as to label dating 25 year olds "paedo behaviour". Social media, if it does nothing else, totally ruins the meaning of words in favour of gaining worthless internet up arrows by saying popular thing over and over and over and over again.
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For the first: those are just idiots being idiots. The word isn't watered down by idiots usage. The word still means the same things. It just means the population around you that believes this is fascist adjacent and an idiot.
Again hard disagree. It still means diddling kids. There just more idiots around and are more vocal.
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But I do wish harm on fascists...
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Watched this yesterday and "Charles Entertainment Kirk" fucking murdered me
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Got a link? I don't know who this is but my curiosity is piqued.
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The post includes a link to the very video, but here it is again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD3rSA4FSqk
It's a very good analysis of political violence in the US. Cody Showdy generally does great work discussing not just the news, but the olds too. Fair and Balanced™©® and all that.
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"It is the correct word for donald trump and the people around him"
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Love the Cody Showdy
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I love the channel too, but I haven't watched any of it for about a year. I just don't have the mental energy to get that into so many topics that, while they're objectively bad, don't apply much to me as a non-american. Just the daily reading of posts from lemmy and the grounded app, both worldwide and local to me can be too much some days. It sucks cause I like the show and podcast, and love their humor, but there's not really any way to interact with it without diving deep into fucked up shit.
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Oh! This is the guy who talked about what a shithead Fetterman was even before the stroke! I could never find it again but I remember his face.
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The channel‘s called Some More News
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Lol nice username
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I also enjoy your username.
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Some More News is really good.
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Their 3 hours takedown of Jordan Peterson is epic.
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The 'Elon Musk Is Not Your Friend' episode was what woke me up to what a shithead he is. I've been a fan since it was called 'Some News' when they were still on Cracked.
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The Rogan one was pretty good too.
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Don't look at the timestamp!
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It's a short video. Didn't Jonathan write that one, too?
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Never listen to fascists calling others communists, for them communism means any opposition to their fascism.
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Cody seems so dispirited for months. Not that I blame him at all.
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He doesn't have enough Warmbo in his life right now! /s
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Cody, Katy, AND Robert Evans seem to be completely losing hope lately.
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I wish harm on them 🤷♂️
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I also wish harm on them.
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https://youtu.be/nD3rSA4FSqk?t=4982
"What is it that you want people to do when you call them fascists?"
We want you to stop being fascists, you blithering idiot!
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Words don't matter here. All that matters now, is action.
Sabotage them any way you can!
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Just watched this a bit ago. Very good video.
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I do not want to be seen as defending fascists or being obscurantist but I regularly encounter normal people who literally never learned how to identify a fascist. To them, it vaguely means authoritarian and imperialistic and deploying it in conversations within an american context seems unnecessarily inflammatory. The average person has neither the time nor the inclination be as plugged into politics as we are. Words actually do mean things...just different things to different people.
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THIS. I don't install social networking apps on my phone (except for Voyager, somewhat recently, if that counts). I tend to find these conversations somewhat hard to follow, because it seems like different people use different versions of the same word... Or maybe the definitions evolve too quickly for those who don't follow it very closely. Idk, I haven't really narrowed it down yet.
But yeah... I honestly don't really know how to identify a fascist. I think it has something to do with right-wing authoritarianism, but I'm not sure I've personally met any right-wing authoritarians, so I'm probably missing something.
And yes, I have attempted to look it up. The results were not very helpful. I assume it's similar to looking up what Nazis were – quite different from how people use the word now.
Thank you for understanding "normal people." 🙈
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Ppl are constantly glued to their phones. They're just lazy or have their head in the sand if they don't pay attention to politics.
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Have you seen people's algorithmic bubbles? The corporations that control these algorithms do not want to increase access to accurate and helpful information. Blaming millions of people instead of the systems that keep them oppressed is morally questionable, strategically ineffective, and psychologically isolating.
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They don't mean anything anymore... Seen people on here calling everything from Joe Biden to Buffalo wild wings fascist.. (real encounters)
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The same thing happened to terrorist, a term that became overused and dead during the IWoT and yet the Trump regime is still trying to leverage that word against his political enemies.
For my own arguments, I use alternatives to fascist or get specific, such as calling it an autocratic regime that uses fascist rhetoric to justify state violence. That way my readers know I'm talking seriously about a serious thing.
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It's why I always ask for specifics or ignore what the average person on these forums has to say.
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Now comes the segment "people say mean things and you should call them mean for it and if they are mean they should be called mean" .... segment.
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Buy an ad.
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Get a life
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Let me start by saying I'm 100% against fascism, but... we do have a terminology problem. The left overall has a messaging problem, "Oh Black lives matter, so that means White lives don't?!?" Words do matter, but it's because they matter that we have a problem. The left seems to ebb and flow on vibes ("Just because we say Black lives matter doesn't mean other people's lives don't") while the right seems so much more literal, but the subtext is maybe even more implied. For example, they might say "They [people not like us] are taking our jobs," but what they really mean is that they are taking the jobs we want (office jobs, trade jobs, etc), but we don't mind them working the jobs we don't want (basic construction, farm hands, etc), all the while their vibe is wrong and that's not really happening.
When you call someone or something fascist they probably won't believe you because fascism equals Nazis which equals antisemitism in most of the common people's view. I'll assume that anyone who has found their way to Lemmy probably understands the difference, but at the same time many of this platform don't seem able to understand that the common person doesn't know the difference.
There is a big difference between systemic racism vs open bigotry. A bigot is much harder to turn from racism than a person who grew up in systemic racism. It still might take decades to turn someone who is systemically racist, but a bigot will likely take longer. The same applies to a fascist; like a systemic racist they might not understand that they are racist or what racism even is. Education or experience are the two avenues people escape those avenues, but it's especially hard if you're doing it alone and if you feel attacked by the terminology.
Fascist = Nazi = Jew hater
"Well, I don't hate jews, I'm not a Nazi, so I'm not a fascist" -common Fascist
I've had plenty of discussions with Conservatives where I took the discussion to a rich vs poor direction or a a personal rights vs governed rights direction and they suddenly become liberals without acknowledging it.
Honestly it's the same hurdle that the left has had for decades, just because you're a leftist doesn't mean you love Stalin and Mao. Messaging is important, one of the most recent persons to break that mold was Bernie Sanders who made it at least semi acceptable to be a Democratic Socialist.
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Yes, the neoliberals have a very difficult time coming up with effective names for things.
It's a problem with tribalism where they're used to people on their side giving them less scrutiny.
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You ever heard the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf?
I kinda think that’s what’s happening here. Leftists and Liberals have been calling Republicans (and especially Trump) fascist since AT LEAST the 2016 election campaign, and they’ve been doing it consistently ever since. People just got tired of hearing it, I guess. Especially since he really didn’t do that much fascist stuff during his first term, and even ended up handing over the office (mostly) peacefully, which isn’t exactly something that actual fascists are known for.
I’m sorry to say this, but the term simply has been overused to the point of meaningless in the past decade. Perhaps it’s time to face reality and come up with a new plan, because this clearly isn’t working.
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We called fascists "fascists" 10 years ago because they were fascists then, and they're still fascists now. It's not difficult to understand.
Stop sanewashing his first term. He tried to do all kinds of fascist stuff during his first term, but the checks and balances were still intact and stopped the worst of it. Being a powerless fascist doesn't mean you're not a fascist.
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The only reason he didn't go full fascist the first time is because he had somewhat competent people who wouldn't let him. Read books from his former cabinet if you actually care. He ordered his people to shoot protestors in the legs. The order was refused because he had an actual American working for him.
He had an entire false set of votes ready to be confirmed in 2020, his VP refused. His mob attempted an armed insurrection. He pardoned them all. But that's different from fascism for some reason? Fuck that, words mean things and I'll be damned if I let the dumbest group of people that America has ever puked out tell me what it means. The "peaceful" (are you for real?) transfer of power happened AGAINST his orders and wishes, not because he was such a nice and non-fascist politician. I don't think you're stupid, stop with the bad-faith "acksuallyy" nonsense. Be an adult.
Do you actually think like that, or do you just like the guy so you cherrypick "facts" to fit your narrative. Enjoy it broski, they'll come for you. They always do. I'm willing to bet you've already thought twice about saying certain things in public. In America. They hate you as much as they hate immigrants. Hope you wake up in time, if for no other reason then for your own sense of dignity.
Now this is just me, but I have never said "You guys have called me gay like 45 times so maybe I'll just go blow dudes since the word is losing meaning!".
Fascists are gonna do fascist shit no matter what we say, but they NEVER get to steal words. Fascism has a definition. Please, look it up, study it, and come back here talking about how using the term fascism is an overreaction. Please. I would love to have that talk. We can go point by point.
You must have a safe and comfortable life, with friends who have never been threatened by this system. Enjoy that, but allow the creeping realization that it is temporary gnaw at your mind. Listen to that voice. You're not special. You'll get to see the inside of a black-site soon enough. They'll find a reason, some shit you said in 2015, doesn't matter. They'll just do it. You think this is a joke? You think America could just never?
We have a fascist government currently which is increasing in its scope daily. Talk shit about Israel, talk shit about that piece of shit that got got in Utah, see how unfascist we are currently. Only until you inconvenience the system, then you're fucked. Maybe you like living in perfect line with arbitrary rules. Maybe you should go work for them. Congrats on not having loved-ones in direct danger from it. Say it with your chest if you disagree, none of that mealy-mouthed semantics BS. Or support it with your chest. But enough of this "You can't call everyone fascists durrrrrr" bullshit. Ya, we fucking can when they behave as fascists. Mussolini was voted in. Hitler was elected. Know how many people talked about "overreacting" and using words which are too severe. Enough to get them elected. You. Are. Not. Special. And neither is your country. Act like a grown-up and stand on what you believe. Either put on the gray hugo boss suit or actually work to affect change with the rest of us. Your choice, but it's one you'll have to live with forever.
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Which version of The Boy Who Cried Wolf did you have growing up? The one where Peter cries wolf and there's a wolf but it's in the woods so the townsfolk do nothing, then the townsfolk call Peter a wolf, and then when the wolf arrives in the village and starts taking people and Peter cries wolf the townsfolk say the word "wolf" is so overused it doesn't mean anything anymore?
Because I don't remember that version.
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While that is the narrative Fox and friends would like you to believe, never forget WHY we called him fascist.
Many fascist regimes take decades to creep into full effect. The warning signs 10 years ago were apparent. Sorry you can’t understand that, but it’s why we’re closer to full blown fascism than ever.
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The boy who cried wolf is a story where someone repeatedly makes incorrect warnings that the community acts on until they stop believing him. This is like the exact opposite. The left has repeatedly and accurately warned that a specific political movement is fascist and been ignored the entire time. The term was not "overused to the point of meaninglessness" people just dismissed the warning without thinking cause they didn't understand the word and couldn't be fucked to learn or listen
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This is like the exact opposite.
No it's not. You get called a fascist for deadnaming transpeople.
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So, neither of you are wrong. It was used correctly and people are numb to it.
Since they didn't see stormtroopers at their doors, they figured there's no real danger. They didn't see that one group losing rights meant that they didn't have rights either.
The regime is doing a good job of not terrifying their base and at the same time keeping them brainwashed and inflicting harm on the various outgroups.
What you're seeing here, I think, is two echo chambers conflicting.
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Hindsight is 20/20. The boy in the story was ultimately correct too, wasn't he? The problem was that the townspeople didn't believe the earlier warnings because they seemed exaggerated and blown out of proportion.
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Handed over the office peacefully lol. He claimed it was rigged and cheered on the people trying to overthrow the government. He might not have been a successful fascist but he was certainly trying.
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Did he end up handing the presidency over or did he not?
This sort of argument is exactly what I'm talking about – you guys wanted so badly to keep calling him a fascist even when he did things that no fascist in history has ever done.
Claiming that the election was rigged isn't particularly new. Hillary did the same after losing in 2016, and Al Gore did as well after he lost to Bush, so it's not like Democrats would never do such a thing.
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What kind of argument is this? They werent fascists because they didnt do a hostile takeover of the government back then? Looks like all my relatives and friends cant be christians because they dont read the bible out loud right in front of me.
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Well, I'm pretty sure the Bible says that in order to be a Christian, you SHOULD go out and proclaim the word to all people, instead of just sitting at home and reading it in private.
That said, there are a few more things that are required as well, so don't make this the only criteria for judging their faith.
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Lots of people simply don't know what fascism even is, I would encourage watching this excellent video on it
Or you can go through this checklist and ask yourself how many fits onto the US, it's at least 10
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This one from the national archives is a great one.
“ Don’t be a sucker” https://youtu.be/vGAqYNFQdZ4
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149 评论
The only good fascist is a very dead fascist.
I was thinking that another exception would be those who open their eyes and leave it behind, but then they are no longer fascists. So you could say their old fascist self is essentially dead too.
So while I do prefer this method as some ex-fascists may turn into anti-fascist advocates, and we can always use more help against fascism, it still doesn't really counter the adage.
I agree that people can (and hopefully do) change their mindset in regards to fascism. Those that do may turn out as you mentioned, advocating against it.
I just don't have faith anymore in that happening anytime soon (although I really hope people see what's going on and change it).
Also my original message is a title of a song by Propaghandi. I would recommend it if you're into more hardcore-esque punk.
I'm still hoping and doing what little I can in the meantime.