The same goes for third parties in First Past the Post systems.
The same goes for third parties in First Past the Post systems.
147 comments
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I think both Dems and Republicans suck in very different and not proportionate ways, but I am also a very big proponent of voting. Go vote! It's your duty.
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I find that the thing people need to remember is that the general election is purely damage control time. For actual change, and getting candidates that don't suck, the work needs to already be done by the time the election rolls around.
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The local candidates and party officials matter more than the final presidential vote. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t vote for President.
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Right, the election is the Primary. In this case it was 2020 when I voted for Burnie. Biden won (and then handed over to Harris). That's who was chosen, and I'm okay with that.
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I find OP's post functionally defeatest. It hinges on this theory that there really is only one choice every election season. You must vote Democrat - whether it's Sherrod Brown or Eric Adams - and you can never question how these officials behave during an election season.
The Dems don't have any real duty towards their voters, or even an obligation to do a particularly good job of governing. They can just point at Republicans, say "Worse! Vote for us or that's who you get", then blast people with anxiety-inducing advertisement until folks panic.
The end result of this system is one in which Dems win by maximizing anxiety, rather than improving quality of life for anyone.
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Which is why they lose. People literally tune them out. Unless they're morons like myself who keep trying to help the Democrats.see their nonsense.
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There are vastly larger numbers of choices in local and legislative races. And I encourage people to work hard to more variety in local and legislative races to push your values instead of only checking in every 4 years. The primary is the key time to push for who you want as the candidate.
During the actual election though, with FPTP, it unfortunately is that reductive. You are stuck choosing who is the lesser evil or who you want to push for change. The November presidential election is like public transportation. You may not like the conditions of the train or the exact destination the bus ends up at, but you take the bus that gets you closer to your destination.
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I don't disagree with you.
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If third parties wanted to actually do some good in the country, you'd see them running locally and encouraging either ranked-choice voting or STAR voting (Score, then automatic runoff).
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The fact that you only ever hear of third parties every four years really illustrates what their true objectives are.
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The fact that you only ever hear about ranked choice voting when you tell Democrat you're thinking of voting third part illustrates what their true objectives are.
(Also, I see third candidate parties in every midterm and local election I vote in at all levels of government. I have no idea what you're talking about).
(Also also, anyone reading this who lives in a swing state and hasn't voted yet, please, just votes for Harris. She sucks, but Trump is even more dangerous now that he has a staff full of enablers and an actual plan. We have to beat him.)
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Third parties run at all levels of government and they would actually benefit from eliminating first past the post polling far more than the major parties.
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Yup, they know they’re outnumbered so they try every trick in the book to stop the Democrat bloc surplus from voting.
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Some of us are actually not Democrats or Republicans because we really think both sides are bad in different ways. I still voted though.
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It's still worth it to register for one of the major parties to vote in their primary and push them towards your actual politics. For example, I wouldn't consider myself "a Democrat", but I am registered to the party and I vote as progressive as I can in primaries.
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But then you don't get to brag about your enlightened centrism.
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Not all states work the same. In Ohio I can just show up and tell them which one I want to vote in each time. I always vote in the Democrat or Republican primary, I get a voice without committing to one or the other.
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In a lot of places, you pretty much have to register for a party to have any say in the local elections. Where I live if there is a primary for an office it is guaranteed whoever wins the Republican primary is going to win the office, so if you want to have a vote in that election you have to register Republican.
I think everyone should get a vote in every primary. If there is a Republican and Democratic primary then you should get to cast a vote for a Republican candidate and a Democrat candidate. I think this would result in a better selection of nominees for offices.
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And some of us who are that way understand that in FPTP there can only be a winner from one of the major parties and we are choosing who we want to fight to push for changes.
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would someone like to explain to me why dem turnouts were SO FUCKING ASS this cycle?
Did you guys just like, forget to vote? What the fuck happened?
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I think there are 3 reasons.
- The economy is ALWAYS, FUCKING ALWAYS, the driving force behind the general public's vote. The current American economy, when observed at a macro level, has been great under Biden's presidency. Inflation induced by COVID and Trump's first term policies has been declining, GDP is up, the trade balance is good, and interest rates are starting to come down. Americans aren't benefiting from this in their personal finances. The wealth gap is severe because of trickle down economics. The democrats are shit at communicating this or even having a plan for it. Instead the democrats campaigned that identity politics were as important as the economy. Just fucking stupid. We all know the democrats policy on minority rights and protections. Talk about the economy and how you'll make individuals wealthier.
- Some exit polls asked what emotions voters felt when they voted. The bi-partisan answer was overwhelmingly anger. (I think it was a cnn poll and a smaller website poll.) Guess which candidate plays into that emotion and guess which ran on "good vibes and joy."
- In 2020, Harris wasn't well liked and didn't primary well. She may have done her job well as VP, but the public didn't know about it. She and her campaign didn't even communicate what she was doing. When she was "anointed," that turned off many democrats. Most of the excitement came from relatively few. The relatively many democrats or people who could be persuaded to vote democrat were not motivated. At current count, Trump has lost about 6 million votes from 2020. Harris has about 14 million less votes than Biden in 2020.
TLDR The DNC are master fuckups
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The economy is ALWAYS, FUCKING ALWAYS, the driving force behind the general public’s vote.
this is probably the best answer, but then this would primarily apply among righties, and centrists, not lefties, who simply didn't really turn out in any significant number. Which would be weird, i think they would be far more galvanized to vote for the leftist in that scenario but idk. Also trumps policy is just, unironically terrible, if any of these people are informed even a little bit, this should be so incredibly obvious to them.
Some exit polls asked what emotions voters felt when they voted. The bi-partisan answer was overwhelmingly anger.
makes sense honestly, but i don't see why this would kill turnout, unless it implies that dems would literally just seethe in a pile of their own shit instead of like, vote.
In 2020, Harris wasn’t well liked and didn’t primary well. She may have done her job well as VP, but the public didn’t know about it.
the 2020 campaign is an interesting, one, and it probably didn't help. Certainly not with the rhetoric.
She and her campaign didn’t even communicate what she was doing. When she was “anointed,” that turned off many democrats.
i think this makes sense, but again i'm having trouble figuring out how "apathy towards the candidate" and ferocious anger against the alternative, somehow leads to the outcome of not voting at all. Maybe moderate lefties are sympathetic to trump, but i genuinely don't think that's possible.
TLDR The DNC are master fuckups
i broadly agree, but i include the democrats as well. I've had a few stints with people who are mad at the system, and then put no responsibility or blame on themselves, which is incredibly rich. I think the dem party has a significant problem with entitlement over votes. We're like the rich white kid that gets whatever he wants, we just pout when things don't go our way and and expect it to change, and then it doesnt. I think we need a reality check as a party (we just got it, hopefully) and a restructuring, and most importantly we all need to suck it up, and get over ourselves, and do what we need to do to protect the values of democracy (mostly liberalism)
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Yeah we know trump is awful, but in the end we could buy more stuff under trump than we can now and that's all we really care about so we voted for him anyway.
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The dumbest most selfish motherfuckers on the planet.
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Yeah we know trump is awful, but in the end we could buy more stuff under trump than we can now and that’s all we really care about so we voted for him anyway.
if this is true, and this is how you vote, you deserve whatever happens to you in life.
If someone lures you under a bridge, and then kills you, i won't care, you lacked any critical thought processing to be able to stop it.
It's harsh, but true.
(hi mods, this isn't a personal attack, i'm making a point through satire)
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They are in for a rude awakening this time around. They are going to find They can't buy nearly as much
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I’d wager a fuck ton of them moved far left and stayed home.
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unless you have significant polling data that shows like at least 30% of the left being socialist or commie or something, i really doubt this was significant.
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America simply feels like they can "Sit this one out" if it means putting a woman in a position of authority over a man.
If Kamela was VP and Walz was the top of the ticket and nothing else changed....
Walz would have won in a landslide.
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honestly idk, that might have lead to increased turnout, but i think primarily because it's "not the biden admin"
it would've also helped if they got out earlier, i think.
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Did you not see the meme? It was obviously because of REPUBLICANS!!!!!
Those darned Republicans made you not vote!! It's always the REPUBLICANS!!!
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For anyone who already knows the truth of this meme, or who would like to know more about the vast methods of deception and how to spot and counter them, this DEFCON 32 talk is incredible.
DEF CON 32 - Counter Deception: Defending Yourself in a World Full of Lies - Tom Cross, Greg Conti
The Internet was supposed to give us access to the world's information, so that people, everywhere, would be able to know the truth. But that’s not how things worked out. Instead, we have a digital deception engine of global proportions. Nothing that comes through the screen can be trusted, and even the things that are technically true have been selected, massaged, and amplified in support of someone’s messaging strategy.
Deception isn’t just about narratives - we see deception at every layer of the network stack, from spoofed electromagnetic signatures, to false flags in malware, to phony personas used to access networks and spread influence. They hide in our blindspots, exploit our biases, and fill our egos while manipulating our perceptions.
How do we decide what is real? This talk examines time-tested maxims that teach the craft of effective deception, and then inverts those offensive principles to provide defensive strategies. We’ll explore ways to counter biases, triangulate information sources, detect narratives, and how hackers can build tools that can change the game.
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Find your polling location. Go vote!
Your ballot will be deciding much more than just the president. Even if you did theoretically think both presidential canidates were equal in all regards (they aren't), then vote for the down ballot races!
Keep your local school boards from having insane people on it that will ban books and harm your kids or your neighbors's.
Vote for the constitutional ammendment questions and ballot initiatives. For instance, many states have either pro and anti abortion questions on their ballot.
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The destruction of the republican party via increased voter and representation rights represents the single greatest possible "progressive" leftward shift of the US political window. Emphasis on "possible". Conservatives are a minority party and their extreme views do not represent modern America.
The road to a more progressive, equitable future is through the democrats. It doesn't end there.
Republicans winning offices means more long lasting legislation to clear, more conservative judicial appointments, etc.
Teaching THIS (2024) democratic party a lesson is worthless if it comes with 30+ years of conservative judicial backsliding.
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Teaching THIS (2024) democratic party a lesson is worthless if it comes with 30+ years of conservative judicial backsliding.
And on top of that, when has "teaching the party a lesson" actually worked out in the peoples' favor?
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It hasn't ever. Always vote for the lesser evil, it's less evil.
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With election reform we don't need for the Republican party to stop existing to get more viable options in the voting booth.
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Very true, my point is the current republican party is trumped up by systemic inertia. They are a minority position.
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The destruction of the republican party via increased voter and representation rights represents the single greatest possible “progressive” leftward shift of the US political window.
Absolute pipe dream. They aren't even going to lose control of the Senate. They'll have dozens of governorships and legislative majorities when this election is over.
Liberals are fucking delusional if they think this election changes any of that.
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My guy I'm saying it's the goal in general not this election. It is the existential goal of anyone left of maga.
You should review the electoral college maps compared to population, in addition to gerrymandering. Democrats actively seek to improve voter access, proper districting and so on. If those topics are continued and eventually successful, the republican party is exposed for the minority population that is is. Republicans cannot win in a "fair" fight.
Lastly my point regarding judicial appointments is critical here: redistricting and voter access issues are won in the courtroom. Reducing conservative appointments is absolutely possible with a Harris win.
Delusional is thinking all this happens in one term, while ignoring the backslide of progress a trump term would mean.
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And thus, instead of fighting the actual enemy, the republicans, you're antagonising the people who are more reasonable. Next time you can do it like France and call leftist crazy extremists so you'll seem less hypocritical about it.
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Been saying this the whole time. Libs were shaming and harassing undecided voters for weeks instead of acknowledging that the dems were running a god awful campaign and pivoting towards nazi policies.
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What are you talking about?!?! The Dems ran a flawless campaign, it's all the voters who are wrong!!! Don't know they know what the Dems tell them is right is right?!? Don't you know you're fucking stupid if you have any qualms about not voting for Harris?!?
- 90% of Lemmy users right now trying to find any reason to blame anyone but the DNC for their hubris and entitlement
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Looking to shut up those people complaining about both sides from the sidelines? Put them in the game by passing electoral reform in your state.
Since they seem to know it all, let them show us how it's done by replacing First-past-the-post voting, passing equal access and airtime laws, and switching away from a perpetual election cycle to something shorter and more reasonable.
Get them to prove to us they know how to do things by making third parties viable and doing away with the infamous spoiler effect that is inherent with FPTP voting.
More people involved in the poltical process, more people voting, more people voting = more democratic votes, more chances to defeat the republicans, more people to call out bullshit on the debate stage, no more canceled debates because of giant man babies.
Electoral reform is just win after win for the American people. I know the election season has people exhausted, but things don't have to be this way. We can be free.
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100% this.
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I voted, that should be enough, same as anyone.
Also, both sides are bad, in different ways.
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You Americans are really weird in that regard. As a foreigner, both your parties are fucking horrible. To demonstrate what I mean: one party wants to ban abortions, the other party says that unless you vote for them, the bad guys will take away your abortions and then they proceed to do absolutely nothing about it.
So yeah, one of your parties is almost cartoonishly evil, the other is plain old adult-level evil.
It's not that democrats are any better than republicans, they're just smarter about pretending they're not evil.
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This is not only incredibly reductionist, it's just flatout wrong. How can people still tout this "both parties are the same" bullshit?
It's gonna get real hard to keep it up in a few months when we start to see the real world implications of a second Trump regime.
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Again, this is a foreigner view. Maybe it's different when you actually live there, though I doubt it. But from my point of view, both parties suck extremely and unless you somehow manage to get a 3rd party to win, you're fucked for eternity. Both parties have no reason to make anything better if they know you'll vote for one of them anyway.
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I think I'll do some data Analysis on how much this community shits.on third parties, non voters, and Republicans relative to how much they advertise what's good about the Dems.
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highest voter turnout in history
nailbiter race between fascists and liberals
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If you're a politically uninformed citizen: Please. Do not vote. It's your right and duty.
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Making wild leaps of interpretation and assumption is the only way Democrats have any points.
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brother, republicans thrive on making shit up
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Republicans tell me the same thing.
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They are technically correct in that a first past the post system will always reduce to a 2 party contest. The fact that conservatives are more consistent and reliable voters is where that distinction breaks down in reality. Non-voting and splitting the left wing coalition hurts the Democratic Party more.
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I'm more right leaning the left. So I guess I'm your statistical outlier. Harris won my state. Doesn't matter, the oligarchs have gained more power.
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The democratic party should get to it replacing First-past-the-post voting then. Stopping the Republicans is priority right?
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Don't worry, the communists of Lemmy are already celebrating the Trump victory.
They were never leftists, or if they are, then they're extremely anti-American leftists who want to see the US burn, not improve.
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Are you even federated with Lemmygrad and Hexbear? Because they're not celebrating. You're like the Republicans who blame immigrants because you want an easy excuse to hide the fact the party is dogshit.
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I am federated with the bear, but not grad. What's going on is thinly veiled celebrations. Plus never have I heard a single one of those people have a bad thing to say about Trump or conservatism.
I'm not too sure most of the people on Hexbear are leftists tbh, I reckon they're fans of authoritarianism more than anything. I even got banned for saying that voting third party (aka not voting against Trump) is pretty much voting for genocide. Of course, they don't see it that way - Biden and Harris are personally killing Palestinians and under Trump this would surely be stopped.
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voter suppression and voting are not the same thing.
a vote for third parties is as valid as a vote for a primary color.
147 comments