Hail Corporate!

I use an iPhone simply because I refuse to use google services any longer, not because I’m delusional about apple caring about privacy.

Comparatively they are better. Its a duopoly in terms of mobile OSs and one is made by a company who mines data and sells ads as its core. The other sells hardware and subscriptions.

I use linux and I wish for a full featured marketable linux phone someday that can compete but with privacy they absolutely beat google.

I have never owned an iphone amd I am currently debating on getting a pixel to move to gOS.

I'm all for linux, I miss the market before iPhone domination. Weird ass symbian phones, windows phones, nokia taco phones, there was all sorts of stuff. I wish we could have a market like that with lots of diverse phones that all run different operating systems. I also wish we could step away from app stores and we could just start building websites again, phones are fast enough now
- The problem is not with Android its with Google But apparently android is from Google even though its open source. Sure, linux phones are nice but they are nowhere near stable.
  The problem is we do everything with mobile phones now even banking and security is a big lead here The Banking apps may need to make sure each and every linux phones are secure and may not have any loopholes Which is tedious Even installing a custom rom can hinder the default security sometimes. If any problems arise neither linux phones nor banks can give any warranty As of now android is more secure and stable and theres a lot of time ahead of linux phones to succeed

This meme brought to you by people who have made android part of their personality. People who if they knew how to asset security, wouldn't be android users.

the only people making a mobile os their whole personality i know of are apple users

I’d LOVE to know how many of the comments here were made on an iPhone.

It's really funny seeing people who defend capitalism trying to avoid capitalism problems with individual actions instead of organizing themselves and fighting for the interest of their own class

Thia guy i know to a tee. He'll defend capitalism to the death and say how the left is evil and anarchy capitalism is the only way.
Idiot. And he pitches about everything in life capitalism causes. I point this out and he says well yeah but thats just bad capitalism not good capitalism. Also he loves fElon, so there's that.

I'm so glad someone else is seeing this.

Watching people say "I'll just use an iphone because android is too locked down" really reinforces my opinion of the average person.

Listen. I’ll be the first to pirate and the first to ditch giving companies like Amazon or Google my money.
But I draw the line at my phone. I tried GrapheneOS and had so many issues with things like banking that it’s just not viable for most people.
I love my iPhone for what I use it for and it works as intended. I listened to yall and removed windows for Linux and that was a shit show too. Nvidia drivers ugh. WiFi just stopping etc. easier to use windows to load the one app of stream I use and do some dev work.
- I understand. When my Win10 PC was approaching End Of Life, I switched to Linux instead of buying a new computer. I’m fairly familiar with Linux since all my servers are Debian, and it’s been great. I tried three distros and they all were unstable due to my hardware. When I asked what I should do, I was told I should buy a new computer that was compatible with Linux. ¯(ツ)_/¯
  I’m using Ubuntu now on that computer, and it’s more stable, but I’ve still had to use a boot drive to roll back TimeShift after a hard crash.
- Honestly? Skill issue.
  It takes some time and effort to get up to speed on community driven operating systems but it's a much happier life once you do.
People are saying this?
Are they idiots?
- Someone actually said that to me the other day. (I am no longer friends with that person). I think its because people (especially americans) see that almost everyone is using iPhone so their tiny social media influenced brains say “If EveRy oNe USes ipHonE it beTteR”. Meanwhile us sensible people just sit here internally screaming.
- iPhone users
  Yes

Can I use my work shit on a Linux phone or custom Rom. Also what are my hardware options with those.

Linux phones aren't quite there yet, and one of the big problems from what I understand is simply that the hardware is locked down. Firmware and drivers aren't readily available, and so supporting handsets is just really hard.
- How much money would be needed to build an open source linux phone from the ground up?
If it's designed for Android, not a phone using desktop Linux, but you can on a custom ROM which is probably a variant of AOSP.
Also what are my hardware options with those.
Incredibly specific and restrictive, do your homework carefully. Pixels are usually (always?) good, which is ironic, while certian manufacturers like Samsung are right out.
I found a model that works secondhand and I'm as happy as a pig in shit with it, FYI.
- Yea, pixels don't have an SD slot so that's out.
Isn't work supposed to provide you with a phone?
- They don't deem it necessary and it's not really but it helps me to not be chained to my desk all day when I can check Teams and Email on the go.
- I wish but then I've been told by manager bro that no one wants to carry around two phones

Apple is kicking and screaming all the way on this side loading path.

As soon as Google got away with it, Apple will refer to Google and happily claim an even playfield and everyone is left holding the shortest stick.

Yeah, I use lineage with microg..and it's been tough.. I had to deal with several government apps in order to start a new job and guess what? None of them work..I had to use my wife's phone to get my new ID.. I'm a teacher and I have to use government apps to deal with student's absences..that Does not work either..basically anything that relys on Brazilian government app to authenticate something is not going to work. I tried to use the website..guess again..it does not work! One can't export an ID from the website..I had been dealing with banking apps without much trouble..but this ID thing is terrible! How come you can only do stuff using an app and not using the website!?

Don't feel bad. Nothing wrong with using an iPhone if you need to. The custom ROM world is janky at best, and it even requires two devices at some point.

I hate the term sideloading. It's a made-up propaganda word to make it seem scary or wrong to install software on your device. All in the name of corporate profits.

It's like "jaywalking" oooh oh no don't "jay" walk, don't "side" load; conform to our business machines! Your natural existence and free movements are an inconvenience to us therefore you have to change.
Or whatever bullshit--however they couch it.
- Very good point!
  Both cars and smartphones are products that actively exploit us, increasingly lock themselves down with black box hardware and software, and have societal dependence practically enforced by law at this point.
  I want a future where they're cool again, and not 100% necessary for day to day existence.
Yea, who are google and apple to tell us what to do with OUR devices that WE OWN anyways?
I will never buy a smartphone(or a computer) that I can't replace the stock OS on, because the transaction for me and the device maker should end when I buy their device, period.
The entire business model of selling me a device only to then extract the maximum possible amount of data points, sell that data to fuck-knows-who(compromising my privacy, and possibly safety), and maximizing targeted ads to attempt to manipulate me is beyond absurd.
- Ironically I own a Google device, but only to use an operating system that respects me and my choices. If Google was just providing device trees for their new phones...
  Due to our favourite kind of software (banking apps) I am unable to use another kind of operating system at this point.
  Also I don't sideload. I install software on a computer that I own, because I paid actual money for it.
I like the term sideloading. It describes an installation method we don't otherwise have a word for.
I'm loading a software package from the side -- from a system running parallel to the target system.
I do hate the use of the term to try to demonize a completely standard practice. Like when using wget to request files from a fileserver was described as hacking.
"Warning: If you unlock your phone, it might explode or you might become a terrorist. Also we won't pay your money back even if there is faulty hardware because there is non zero chance you might have caused it while unlocking"

Yeah, you can go with a Linux phone but forget about:

controlling any IOT device
using any smart watch/sport trakcer
Android Auto or any remote car features
mobile banking
authenticating at work
buying public transport tickets from your phone
using apps for boarding pass when flying
charging your car at most public chargers
using any type of digital ID or documents

If you're already a luddite that's awesome, you're free to move to Linux phones. If you like modern tech and the convenience it gave us it will be really fucking sad to lose all of it because or corporate greed.

Agreed, but is a chicken and egg problem. People won't use Linux because the apps they want don't support it and apps won't support it because most people don't use Linux. Someone will have to cave in if we want to break this stupid proprietary duopoly.
- The best way is freeing Android. Android should be the "Mobile Linux". What should happen is that EU should ensure that people are allowed to side load and unlock bootloaders and that all apps are compatible with alternative ROMs. All dependencies on google play services should simply be made illegal and all apps should be fully compatible with AOSP.
  If we can't get this we will spend the next 10-15 years in mobile dark ages. Mobile Linux may never get enough tracking to be supported the way desktop Linux is.
- Someone will have to cave in if we want to break this stupid proprietary duopoly.
  Honestly that's not a chicken-and-egg problem. Only one party of the two in this example has the power to create or change apps, whereas people in this example, even if they would use Linux, they effectively are prevented from.
  The "someone" who has to cave in is obvious.
I used to run an LTE-enabled nettop instead of a phone during the app-only craze, can't get any worse than that. Recently removed bank apps, taxi, delivery, maps, youtube, email and all social media apps off my phone in favour of using websites instead. They're still a bit of an afterthought compared to apps so the experience is a bit clunky, but the option is available for most things nowadays.
- Some things yes. I don't have any social media apps (not even lemmy) or YT but my car charger requires an app, my AC has an app I use from time to time, my Garmin GPS has an app, I have to use MS Authenticator at work, my car has an app and Android Auto and 90% of public car charges require an app. None of this has website alternative. Can I live without them? Well, not without work obviously and where I live electric car infrastructure is so tied to mobile phones I'm seriously considering just giving up and going back to a normal car.
Most of this i don't use my phone for anyway. I'll use my current android phone for the rest, if needed.
Still going to wait and see if the Eu makes a move, but i won't go back to fascist enabling corps.
- Yeah, sadly I don't see a way around it other than having spare Android/iOS phone.
  For some time GrapheneOS should work just fine but when Google kills it we're fucked.
Don't they have functioning Android app support now?
- In theory yes but most non open source apps require google play services. Hard to tell how long those will work with waydroid and similar. Also running android apps this ways destroys battery apparently.

The fact that there are only two operating systems and both are locked down is a major problem. Unless a company like Valve invests heavily in a linux phone it is unlikely to ever go mainstream enough for developer or device support.

We need governments and legislators to force these systems open. To enshrine the right to control the things you own and criminalize any attempt to curb people’s ownership or control. That is the first step. Once that’s in place, the environment for a third option to exist will be in place.

There are more than these 2, they are just ubiquitous.
Sailfish is another one, UBPorts, Danctnix, ... They have no marketshare worth considering for companies so they lock their services down to the 2 big ones and everything else in their eyes is "unsupported" at best and "not secure" at worst.

There is no word called sideloding it's called installing software

"Sideloading" means "defeating a walled garden to install software"

Just use the device mobile security researchers use.

You’re gonna hate it when you discover which one it is.

Yeah, just hating on iPhones because they're iPhones is stupid. I use GrapheneOS, and their official statement is "Graphene is your best option for security, but if you don't want to fiddle with things and be in an open source ecosystem, your #2 best choice is an iPhone"
- I’d love to use graphene if it didn’t require me to buy a Pixel
- Excuse me Sir/Ma'am is it socially acceptable to dislike walled gardens and horrendous UI design at the price of more than a new laptop computer
- I’ll never use an android device again knowing what I know about them.
  I begrudgingly use an iPhone, knowing what I know about them.
Just use the device pedophiles use.
- Survivorship bias: don't use the phone they get caught on.

The dropped Chromecast for a new device. I was sideloading apps on that. I wonder how long before we have a "fix"

Honestly haven't heard that one. I've only heard "I used android for freedom. If android is becoming a shitty apple, I'll just use the better apple"

That's sort of where I'm at right now to be honest. Google has removed or plan to remove basically everything that gave Android an edge over iOS. Meanwhile Apple, for all their flaws, has actually put out some pretty compelling offerings with the iPhone 17 line both hardware- and software-wise, and has made meaningful improvements in the realm of repairability and side-loading, albeit under regulatory pressure. At this point, it's looking like going to be harder than I'd like to choose between the two when I go to replace my phone in 3-5 years - provided both companies stay on their current trajectories.
- Here’s how I think about it:
  Google’s business model involves advertising to you, tracking your activity, mining your data, and selling that information to other entities while also using it to advertise to you more. It’s their main profit-driver. You are the product.
  Apple’s business model is to sell you the hardware, give you the software and make it (mostly) depend on the services to keep you locked in. You (the user) are not the product, their devices and services are.
  Of the two, which is the lesser evil?
  Normies are not going to fully convert to Linux phones and open-source software any time soon. In the meantime as far as privacy is concerned, Apple can do much worse and Google can do much better.
That's been my reason to switch. When Android 12 removed or hid a lot of the functionality and customization that I used daily on my Pixel 4a5g, I switched to an iPhone. It's a shame I had to sell back my iphone 14 pro to my provider (due to the plan I had chosen), otherwise I'd have kept that one, but I'm currently running the 16 Pro, and intend to keep that for another 4 or 5 years.

Week 4 on GrapheneOS:

This is the best. I should have done this years ago.

Even IF all you care about is performance, this is the option. Fastest pocket derputer I've used in my life.

I’ve been planning to switch to GrapheneOS soon, though my carrier (Verizon) makes it kinda difficult.
- How so? I'm on Verizon. Swapped my sim and off I went. Upgrade credit issue with them or something?
  They told me they couldn't get the 256GB model so I said @#^ them and bought myself one

Apple does give a shit about privacy… in the same way that companies care about gay pride. Right now privacy is still a selling point for Apple compared to other companies. This is why they are still so loud about on device AI and pretty much silent when any of their features require cloud processing. But am under no illusions that will remain the case forever.

As far as “dumb phones” are concerned; they don’t exist anymore. It’s still a device with an OS, GPS (as required by the law that created the Amber Alert here in the US), and an Internet connection, that makes calls using VoLTE or similar. Most of the ones you can buy today run things like KaiOS which has an App Store and comes with Google Maps preinstalled.

If you want real privacy you need to disconnect from the Internet which pretty much means no phones at all now that everything is VoIP.

Apple has 2x very publicly resisted government demands for user data and campaigned against laws to institute backdoors into their software and services. They’re not perfect by any means but they are by far a lesser evil.
A fully capable Linux phone is the dream, but most people aren’t going to use one. For the majority of people, I would recommend the company that refused to listen to the US and EU about weakening the security of their products over the one with the business model of relying on advertising to you and selling your data.
- Apple has 2x very publicly resisted government demands for user data and campaigned against laws to institute backdoors into their software and services.
  Indeed.
  They also immediately folded in China after being given the ultimatum of comply or die.
  All it would take is Trump to give the same ultimatum...
- Was giving literal gold to Donald Trump part of that campaign to save the users?
- You’re saying the same thing as the top of the thread. All of this is for now. At some point it could be advantageous for Apple to stop resisting US demands. It is important to understand and prepare for that while also accepting, for now, Apple provides the most corporate privacy of the corporate privacy options in the US.
- And they have proven if the government makes a law requiring access they'll do it. They have done it for China and Russia.
- They just do that for brand optics. Because researchers found the apple privacy settings off/on made no difference to the packet of info sent to apple. Their privacy is a facade.
Mostly agree except about disconnecting from the internet, classic SMS/voice calls aren't any more private than VoIP.
Your best bet for location privacy is E2E encrypted services like Signal over wifi, plus MAC randomization and a VPN on untrusted networks. I'd say GrapheneOS is good enough for most people, but mobile Linux has also come a long way.
- Encryption doesn’t stop them from knowing what tower you are attached to. Simply having a phone on you even with the GPS and WiFi off (or with the newer phones even the whole phone off) would still be enough to get your location to within a few hundred feet. The original iPhone used triangulation exclusively for location.

Once my GrapheneOS phone goes out of service, I may just go back to flip phones. I actually kind of hate smartphones and their corrosive effect on the world. The convenience isn't worth the loss of privacy, empowerment of bad actors, and psychological/societal damage. I can live without it. I'll just do computery stuff on real computers on my own schedule.

We are slowly entering a world where this won't be possible
I'm just saying that you can uninstall stuff from your smart phone.
Use it for phone stuff, not computer stuff.
But hey, don't let me tell you what to do. Have fun.

My biggest issue with the alternative phones is I'm not paying a massively inflated price for bad hardware just because it's using free software, sorry. Same goes for Framework laptops. I will tolerate paying a premium, but everything about the device must match the price tag.

Buy more so that their economics and capabilities can be improved so they can sell better for cheaper.
That's how economics work, right? Someone will have to buy phones enough that it becomes financially viable to pursue the needed improvement (including eg.: getting better open hardware or even getting patents on already existing hardware released).
- Buy more so that their economics and capabilities can be improved so they can sell better for cheaper.
  So you do that and I buy when the price makes sense, thanks. Sorry, not paying a 60% premium for three year old hardware so "in the future it can become cheaper for others"

I wanna run away to live with dogs like Diogenes. I'll live in a basket and piss and shit in the streets. No spyware phone required.

What Linux based phones are actually worth trying? Something not built on old hardware, and can actually install apps, messages people and work as a phone. And that I won’t have to chase issues and bug fixes on nonstop to keep it working. Something stable for daily use, works in multiple countries, and not just something to play around with.

Are the fair phones really that bad on Ubuntu? I was sizing those up for my next phone
So far there's this company: https://furilabs.com/shop/flx1s/
The phones actually seem really neat, they're running real Linux, with Waydroid for sandboxed android apps. But it's got... quirks. It's very GNOMEy and there's still a lot of battery issues and it can be a bit awkward to use.
Also, since apps are sandboxed, something like sending pictures over Signal can be tedious without extra steps.
But it's an exciting step forward and the devs are really involved with the community!
Alternatively I imagine there's something like PostMarket on a Fairphone. Even with their issues, I appreciate what they're trying to do.

First of all: writing this from my iPhone. I’ve been on various android phones, including flashed to Sailfish and alternative ROMs, and I kinda hate being on an iPhone now. But - it works.

Look at the incentives of Google and Apple. Google sells ads. That’s it. Any operation at Google other than that is just a small side hustle. Apple sells hardware and 30% commission on apps/media. Apple’s incentives to fuck over the privacy of individuals is far smaller than Google’s incentives. That’s it.

Let’s go through the list:

Android vendors (Samsung et. al): Zero incentive to not sell you out. Also, no recurring revenue throughout device lifetime (except selling your data), so zero incentives to provide more than absolutely minimal software support after sale.
Open Source ROMs: All the incentive, but zero funding or business model. Continually fighting against Google. Thus, not really an option for ”normal” people. I won’t hand my mother a flashed phone, and she won’t be able to flash one on her own.
Sailfish: Had incentives and a business model. When I used it, the developers could barely keep the web browser patched. Tell me that’s good for privacy.
Apple: Has incentives to patch and update older phones (recurring revenues from AppStore and iCloud), and doesn’t really sell any ads themselves.

Apple are anti-consumer assholes with a clear objective of creating lock-in under the guise of ”privacy” and ”security”, and they really want to force people into buying more hardware. Agreed. But they are the only major phone vendor that doesn’t have incentives to actively screw you over.

Is a flashed ROM ”better” for ”privacy”? Probably. Should you get your mother an iPhone? Yes.

Both Tim and Pinchai paid Donald Trump money to attend his inauguration and lick his ass on a daily basis. They both have one very big incentive to invade their user's privacy: American fascism.
- Yes. It would be nice if the Americans got their shit together.
  Meanwhile, what phone should my mother buy in a store?
From the security standpoint and the patching standpoint, you are 100% straight on accurate.
Unfortunately, Apple Microsoft and Google all sell ads. They are also all working on training AI with your data.
The upside is, as far as ad companies go, they're not just handing over the data that "bleachedbluejeans23@apple.com likes red squirrels to be vendors" They sell client code where the client pulls the ads directly from apple's platform.
They're all collecting dossiers on you. They have all identified you and their systems with whatever emails, payment cards, what have you that you use on their systems. And they have a database with all of your intimate desires and wishes and wants and how much money you make.
When Google started doing this, they threw up the don't be evil banner. You can't just give all this information to a company and then trust them not to use it forever.
- So where can my mother buy this excellent non-tracking phone?
  She can’t. No one sells it.
  Of course everyone is collecting a shitton of data. Out of the two (realistic) alternatives we have today, Apple has, by far, a better track record. Still bad, but they have far fewer incentives to be shitty than Google. Googles only incentive is to be shitty and sell ads. Pick your poison.
Apple: Has incentives to patch and update older phones (recurring revenues from AppStore and iCloud), and doesn’t really sell any ads themselves.
Don't fall for Apple PR, they sell you out like everyone else does: https://ads.apple.com/
- Of course they do.
  But they have recurring revenue streams other than just ads, unlike the Android vendors. Meaning - they probably won’t fuck me over as hard as Google.
  Edit: also, note that the ads they sell via your link are on their own platform, i.e. within their own ecosystem. The revenue here is most likely peanuts compared to the AppStore commissions.
Alternatively, get your mother an android phone and chuck /e/OS on it and tell her it's an iPhone. She won't know.
- Try it. I dare you. And I want you to succeed.
  People have been saying this about linux for the past two decades. Gamers are only now looking at moving over to Linux, after Valve invested a shitton of money into compatibility and usability, fixing the edge cases. And that’s the small subset of people who actively care about their computer. Normal people moving to Linux won’t happen the next few years.
  Preserving usability while locking down a system is a really fucking hard problem, especially when you need to do it for normal people and not only us nerds. And you really need the normal people there in order to inject funding.
Linux Phone with waydroid is the way
- Probably excellent. Can my mother buy it over the shelf, in a store?
  If not, what’s the best alternative currently available over the shelf, in a physical brick and mortar store, for my mother?

I'm sorry I'm not buying a Linux phone or similar for the same reason I'm not going to become a mechanic to drive a car. I want to activate my SIM card and go. Out of the box. I don't want to have to know about kernel access side booting in dev mode. People like me are the primary user base for most devices.

Yeah honestly, while I do think that part of the issue with Linux popularity is that it doesn't have some big corporate marketing sponsor, I truly believe that the bigger part of it is just the absolute roughness of the user experience and the still dominant mentality of wanting it to be some kind of prestige flex club. Linux needs to become as brain dead simple and out of the box usable as iOS or Windows. Linux folks love to say that it already is. It isn't. I use Linux, and I really like it. But if you think it's as straightforward as the big two, you're lost in the sauce. You're like the math professor who says "Come on guys double integrals are NOT that complicated, it's basically just addition and multiplication. Don't you know how to add and multiply?"
The big problem is that the intersection of people who are not lost in the sauce and who want to and are capable of actively making contributions to Linux, is very very small.
- I'd have to take your word.for it.

it doesn’t matter if apple cares about privacy. corpos shouldn’t have this data in the first place.

Who should?

ITT

"I give up"

Without defending one or the other, as long as you have proprietary closed software running on the device itself or on the backend of the services it syncs with, all you can have is assumptions and reasonable doubt about how the data is used. We're trading convenience for someone knowing something about us.

After using GrapheneOS on a gigantic fucking Android pixel model, I think I'm gravitating back towards the third option and the iphone mini I haven't dared to sell yet. I think I'll just do the things that needs privacy on my computer in the future.

Does anyone remember r/hailcorporate and its brief moment of fame before the popular subs banned mention of it and its own mods started running a crypto scam?

It was annoying. Couldn't mention any brand name in any context without getting an "/r/hailcorporate" comment.
- I liked that part of it anyway

apple stans are built different.

they will bend over backwards insistently to defend apple on every. single. issue. relentlessly.

apple marketing did get into their heads in a weird cultish kind of way. i've met a couple irl, they are kind of scary to think about.

How are devs supposed to test their apps on devices before they publish?

They can upload their ID to google, pay $25 USD, and then sign their apps using their own signing key which was pre-approved by Google.
Its the same for apple, but I think their fees are like $99 per year.
There are also reports of Google potentially leaving in a ADB bypass for it.

That'd be like saying "I totally trust Google with all of my so-called offline documents by using their totally online suite. They totally wouldn't like, be analyzing the contents once I am online or anything, would they?"

What are the consequences for Lineage OS?

It won't affect you in any way directly. The issue is it very well may affect what apps are available and regularly updated on Fdroid and other app stores or repos.
- It will, unfortunately.
- I get it, it's bad for the ecosystem in general.
Installing non-approved apps on custom roms will still work.
Dire, from what I gathered
- That's a damn shame.

Yeah I find it hilarious that anyone thinks apple cares about privacy. They clearly have been cultivating that image but it rings pretty hollow to me. They just chose something that would be easy to say they care about that an ad company clearly also doesn't care about.

They care about privacy as they consider themselves the owner of your data.
- Like all of this is untrue? You can have you iPhone or whatever at to encrypt shit locally and Apple has no ownership of the data? This obviously comes with tradeoffs, but people are so effing uninformed and apparently riding the dick of google as hard as they can.

Wow, that’s so cool OP that you think we should be allowed to use apple products

"My iphone battery died again!? I guess I'll have to buy another new phone. Why does this keep happening?" /s

Idk what I'm gonna do if the F-Store stops working.

Yoink from github via Obtainium.
Also, obtainium can also yoink from gitlab, selfhisted forgejo, codeberg and also fdroid.

Hardware really needs to be opened. So many issues are caused by people being unable to get away from large company control due to them beinf the only ones able to get decent hardware.

The Librem 5 is a Linux phone and already has open board design files, available here.
- And it sucks last I heard. And the hardware is very outdated. I wish Ubuntu would try again.

Maybe China will bring out a cheap, affordable and degoogled phone lol.

Idk man, PRC isn't exactly FOSS friendly. I mean they are pushing their corporate platform called "WeChat" which requires a smartphone. Many of mainland China's services require a phone number verification, and phone service require Identification. They've started developing things like "HarmonyOS" and started going Closed Source and blocking .apk installs (allegedly, I can't confirm). Bootloader unlocking has become a pain in devices like Xiaomi. Etc...
I'm more wiling to bet on the Europeans to develop FOSS stuff.
- Wechat and Alipay are really convenient though. I could see them enshittifying in the future, but right now they're great.
  Many of mainland China’s services require a phone number verification, and phone service require Identification
  Some work with foreign numbers. Some require a passport photo.
  Meituan works if you verify a foreign number the first time you scan a bike. Which is a problem if you don't want to catch roaming charges. I had to drag a bike into wifi range so I could get the SMS verification via wifi the first time.
when you install western apps on a modern chinese phone, it will complain that it doesn't have a license from the ICP. For now there's a "install anyway" button to bypass it, but for how long?

Google: app developers use the zygote loading system to create an everpresent preloaded bedroom on your device with access to whatever they want in sensor hardware access and monitoring. It is essentially like a full equivalent computer user in parallel. This is how it just works while the (exploited-mark) human user is ignorant about operating systems, networking, and security. They have full equivalent access because you do not understand the details. Again these are full equivalent users. They are likely intimately preset with you more than any other partner... If they are there for stalkerware digital slavery, to sell your digital person for exploitation and manipulation, such a transaction is much like prostitution. The motivations of developers that are not whoring people out are mostly benevolent, altruistic, or taking a stand to support liberal democratic freedom. So in essence google is a digital slaver running a loose coalition of independent developer pimps that collectively enslave your digital person for manipulation and exploitation.

Apple: is a central fascist neo feudal lord that centralizes the exploitation and slavery under a single market forum where they directly manipulate and extort every developer and slave. Apple is the stalkerware data salver selling the exact same data to manipulate and extort users just like google.

The difference has been an open market free for all of privateer piracy raiding the coast of Africa to fuel the Southern plantations and flying the Jolly Roger of google, versus the matrix growing humans in a vast vat field with the Jolly Roger of Apple on the side of the buildings. To call one different than the other in terms of privacy is a joke as sour as US politics represents a balanced spectrum of interests. It is all stalkerware data slavery ownership of a part of an individual's physical person for exploitation and manipulation. Open Source software is the last bastion fortress of real citizens in a democracy fighting off zombie pirates flying a Jolly Roger. This is a choice between Apple vanishing people and Google abducting them from the fortress.

ROMs are the red pill, a revolver, and a place to stay for fightimg for freedom from the 21st century digital slavery phase of neo fascism, and its coming total war 3.

Um…who actually thinks #3? Apple tells you they sell your stuff and makes app devs tell you. They still sell it, mine it, tailor it for ads, all the same stuff as Google…but just not as pervasive.

The GrapheneOS people. Everyone in their IRC unironically thinks Iphones are highly secure, in part BECAUSE they are proprietary. But they also don't tolerate any criticism of Google, especially if you criticize Google for being proprietary.
I saw one person saying basically that yesterday, but it was heavily downvoted.

you can make your point without ableism, you know

also, has anyone (at least here on lemmy) said "well at least apple cares about privacy!!"? the most ive seen is "apple is less atrocious with privacy than google", which is demonstrably true (tho if you care about maximum privacy, using an iphone is obviously not a good idea)

This is only ableist if you believe the drooling idiot at the bottom has a disability and is not just a drooling idiot.
- he has facial deformity which is usually accompanied by other developmental issues, and is being used to stand in for exactly that here
- yeah maybe theyre the ableist ones if they think that is a depiction of someone with a disability lmao

The last panel could also say “muh iPhone! I was never allowed to sideload anyway!” [I say this as an iPhone user]

The humble IPA file:

It’s less that Apple cares about privacy, and more that it’s easier for them to control within a walled garden. If you control all of the levers, the rest naturally falls into place. That doesn’t mean it’s better; it’s just different.

Apple is secure in the same way a prison is secure. It is great at stopping attackers from entering but also great at stopping you from getting out if you don't do it the approved way.
It’s even more than that. They don’t want the liability of responsibility handling/securing your data in the event their systems are breached.
I used to work for a company that did a lot of business with Apple and have friends who have worked at Apple proper, they’re paranoid about mishandling sensitive data.

I just want smart tube to keep working on my shield

I hear Linux phones are close for daily driver stuff. Gonna try one when I am ready for a phone.

Pretty disappointed in my 2 year old pixel, regardless of Googles continued enshitification

Have you looked into GrapheneOS support for your device?
- Sucks that it only works on Pixels for the most part. I've never paid that much for a phone, and I ain't starting now lol
@chocrates @DeathByBigSad If you're already used to Linux desktop, I'd even venture to say that Linux phones are daily drivable for you in this order: #FLX1s from @furilabs, #JollaC2, #LibertyPhone, #Librem5, #Pinephone.
I'm daily driving a #Librem 5 with #postmarketOS and everything critical actually works for my use case.
- Awesome! Yeah I run Ubuntu at home for years. Sadly back to Mac at work

Perhaps there's scope to have a phone be just a dumb 'viewer' and all the processing and apps run on a suitably configured Linux pc or virtual environment at home. The internet in general is getting fast enough that the latency might not be an issue, and it would not need a powerful phone.

Poor example below, controlling an old phone using Rustdesk.

Honestly though what should I switch to. I have a lot of apps that need side loading.

There are many custom ROMs based on AOSP: GrapheneOS (for security against hacking and confiscation), LineageOS and its descendants /e/OS, iodéOS, and crDroid, etc. CalyxOS is not doing well right now, but it should be back in a few months.
Make sure you can relock the bootloader after installing to protect against attacks through the USB connector.
Murena ships /e/OS preinstalled on the European Fairphone and Shiftphone. Iodé similarly.
Then there's Volla phone which can have Linux (Ubuntu Touch) and and VollaOS (AOSP-based) on the same phone. There are other Linux phones, but nobody recommends them for normal consumers.

Volla doesn’t ship to Canada :c

https://www.privacyguides.org/en/mobile-phones/

I don't think PG has updated yet to take into account that F-Droid is saying they might shut down if Google proceeds with the app verification stuff
- We only recommend F-Droid as a way to obtain apps which cannot be obtained via the means above.
  The "means above" that I see are:
  Obtainium
  GrapheneOS App Store
  Aurora Store
  Manually with RSS Notifications
  I don't see any mean "below" F-Droid.
  I don't think that privacyguides.org will have to be updated significantly if something related to F-Droid happens since it already documents that "there are some security-related downsides to how F-Droid builds, signs, and delivers packages". It's clear to me that using F-Droid should only be used when it's clear that all other means will fail to produce suitable results.

Dumb phones, has anyone tried: https://sunbeamwireless.com/ ?

Interesting. Looks to be based on Android AOSP which kind of puts you in the same boat. Th price tag kind of hurts as well at $250 give or take depending on features.

I don't quite get the hierarchy, Linux phones have FOSS software, and greater device capability and software support compared to dumb phones. They should be ranked above dumb phones.

Unfortunately Linux phones are not that mature yet. Often they lack basic functions like "calling".
- Yeah but at at least they never sell information about who you have been calling!
  You've had "security though obscurity" now try "security though inability"!
- So if they can’t call then they aren’t really a phone then. Which is kinda wild that that’s missing, that’s literally the basic functionality of a phone.
- Isn't that just a tablet?
It's not hierarchy.
It is standard, deluxe, delusional.
They are. Look at the meme, Linux phones get the tux.
- Well of course they do. It's their mascot.

This is a terribly non technical and hugely misinformed post

I can't wait for "linux phones", I bet it's going to be "great"!

Not "non-approved apps", unsigned apps. They're not running approval on the software itself. And technically you can still sideload signed software. And you can sideload unsigned software in non-Google certified Android devices, too.

Hey, I hate their stupid power grab, it sucks and I hope regulators intervene, but if you're gonna get all pretentious and uppity about everybody else's responses you're gonna get fact checked. I don't make the rules.

Say, I wanna run an F-Droid app, I trust F-Droid's signature, but Google doesn't, therefore, I can't run it. Tell me: How is that not an "approval process".
And how about izzyondroid or The Guardian? What if they don't wanna show their IDs or if Google deems them "untrustworthy". (They are more safe than the "Play Store" btw, Google can't even keep their own stores free of malware lol, which a bunch of volunteers have much safer apps)
- I can already tell this is going to be one of those conversations you get online where people are just itching for somebody to defend the position they want to argue against and will just have that argument regardless of what the other side says.
  But because I'm a very flawed person I'll still go for it and note that technically if F-Droid is the one signing all the apps and Google doesn't like one of them, they'd have to ban F-Droid's entire account, not just the one app. Anything else would require them to look at the apps in the first place, which in this scenario they are not doing.
  But it's certainly possible that they'll ban a specific developer (or a store if the store is doing the signing), and that's one of the reasons why this scheme is unacceptable.
  What it is not is an approval process, since... you know, they're not looking at the apps themselves. Words mean things.
  Presumably, at least nominally, Google wants the signatures to be able to tie an app to a developer. Whether they are going to ban people proactively or not we simply don't know because their stupid policy is barely communicated and they seem to intend to get it rolling before addressing any of these because Apple already used this loophole successfully so why the hell not, I suppose.

Assuming there will still be a way for devs to run apps without store BS. Won't this just push users to run the apps the same way? All they're threatening with is that they will no longer provide updates or security screening or something, which will be even better for backward compatibility. If this forces enough users to learn enough devops just this once to enter the paradise that is free from corporate security theatre you bet your ass they're not going back

What a weird strawman

Google literally copied this from Apple.
Lol what?