Tyranny
Tyranny


Tyranny
the right wing ethos that boils my blood the quickest is when people drool out shit like 'play stupid games win stupid prizes' under a story about some guy getting brutally beaten by police for being at a protest or stealing a dvd
Who got beaten by police for stealing a dvd?
Not a DVD theft, but Eric Garner was killed in the altercation of his arrest for selling single cigarettes
How is this a right wing problem not a both sides problem?
Right wingers say this about protestors or whistleblowers.
Left wingers say this about forced birthers or antivaxxers.
You with your amazingly void intellect: bOtH SiDeS
A right to remain silent. A right to a competent attorney regardless of ability to pay. A right to due process. A right to a timely trial by a jury of peers. A right to healthy food, shelter, healthcare, and other accommodations while incarcerated. I'm probably missing a few.
The right to a fair wage while imprisoned. Or else your justice system only serves to produce slaves.
Slavery is legal in prisons here in the U.S.
Should they then also pay rent in prison? :D (not serious)
You lose your rights when you go to prison. Murderers shouldn't have a right to wage laws.
The right to vote, regardless of criminal convictions or incarceration.
Prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment. It’s one of the most fundamental rights that criminals have and it must constantly be revisited to ensure we aren’t brushing aside the cruelty we’re simply accustomed to
Absolutely. The right say they're pro-freedom but they'll strip you of the right to vote if you smoke weed.
Coincidentally one of the reasons that led to the prohibition of cannabis.
Who smoked weed? Black people, brown people, and when the war on drugs really ramped up…hippies.
Nowadays most rational people realized the war on drugs was bunk and people of all walks and colors smoke weed.
I doubt it’s a coincidence that the states that haven’t decriminalized yet are the ones that still love to hassle PoCs and hippies the most.
It was Mexicans too. It's where the "lazy Mexican sleeping in the shade" comes from.
If you're willing to question cannabis legality maybe look at other drugs too. Coca leaves were chewed by native tribes millennia ago to help with long journeys. Kratom was used in Asia to help with long harvest days. Celts were eating shrooms millennia ago.
Humanity has a LONG history of drug use with nothing off-limits and there was no societal collapse from it. It's the past century puritan ideals that are a serious aberration.
Did you know it's statistically more dangerous to go horse riding than take Molly? The toilets in the UK Parliament were tested for cocaine and all tested positive. No drug should be illegal.
Ref:
Which is why I refuse to call it 'marijuana.' It's a word making it sound Spanish and therefore a threat from down south. It's from Asia, not Latin America. The name, in English, makes no sense- unless you want to demonize it.
John Ehrlichman literally admitted it. https://www.vera.org/reimagining-prison-webumentary/the-past-is-never-dead/drug-war-confessional
That's a very good way of putting it. Reminds me of the developments in Russia.
You mean how Putin killed Navalny? Yes.
Yes, but not only that. His murder is emblematic of a general culture of taking away the rights of people who do not fall in line with the regime.
Countries that are known for corruption often have massive bureaucracies that are full of little seemingly inconsequential laws that most people can safely ignore all the time. The result is that nearly everybody's breaking some rule just to function with some level of efficiency in society. In fact if you wanted to follow every rule it would break you.
The result is that whenever a vengeful government official wants to bring someone down all they have to do is investigate for a few minutes and figure out which is the most recent rule that was broken and poof that person's a criminal.
This is why "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide" is a fallacy. They could invent a reason to get rid of anyone they don't like because the law is convoluted on purpose.
But if you allow criminals to immigrate, give house arrest to assassins and such, never punish anyone for corruption and the rest of the world allows corrupt ex president's to calmly live in Brussels and pay foreign agencies for social media attacks against political and judicial enemies... That's what happens when you let the extreme left win (Ecuador)
I'm not sure how you made the jump from "removing rights" to "removing punishments." Even the U.S. constitution has explicitly protected rights for the convicted and we definitely still have prisons.
The great thing about Florida is that the people voted to give them the right to vote back after prison but Republicans in the state's Congress hated that and did everything they could to stop it.
While voting rights CAN be restored, they ensured that the process to accomplish it was a Byzantine maze that could not be navigated. I don't just mean it's hard, I mean it's impossible because some of the requirements can't be met (eg they can't pay all court costs if the government doesn't know, or won't say, the amount owed).
Fuck the will of the people I guess.
Your first problem was being in the South. Your second problem was expecting a red state to give rights to people. They're pretty big on taking them away. Nothing "Civil" about it.
Just for reference everyone reading has almost definitely committed multiple felonies. Three felonies a day was published 13 years ago, and while the title might be exaggerated, the argument is even more true today.
Flordia voters passed a constitutional amendment in 2018 that ended felony voting prohibitions and the state just ignored it.
Give everyone the right to have rights.
That’s actually a classic blunder. If you give everyone rights then that implies that they can be taken away
There are definitely additional levels of tyranny.
Some are are simply called HOA
And all need to be subdued.
That's what a criminal would say
/s just in case.
Better get on it fast. They did that shit to me despite the law and nobody involved in any step of the process helped. They have no oversight.
What's your story?
Tired of telling it. It's a cliche anyhow.
Very true.
Western legal systems are based not on jailing criminals but on keeping the innocent out of jail. This does result in more criminals roaming free but I'll take that a hundred times over the alternative
The hell they are. Getting accused of ANYTHING in America VERY quickly becomes a matter of providing proof that you are innocent. And not having said proof will probably lead to a guilty verdict. Get a GOOD lawyer. Prosecution will basically fuck off if they have nothing but accusations and your defense lawyer is annoying enough to deal with. Otherwise they will waste as much of your time as they have to in order to make you think it won't end until you admit to something you didn't do. They'll even offer to reduce the false charges. Western legal systems are a fucking joke.
Western legal systems are a fucking joke.
Do not confuse Western and American just because America is to the west. Western European nations operate differently from America which is a 3rd world country with a Gucci handbag.
They're better than systems that pre-suppose guilt and actually make you prove your innocence.
In those systems by the time you end up charged it's pretty much too late to do anything but get a softer sentence.
It's also worth noting that many of our justice system rights in the US have been severely eroded. Like the right to a jury trial, the prohibition on search and seizure without cause, the right to a lawyer, and the prohibition on cruel or unusual punishment. With all of that compromised the predisposition of innocence is itself severely compromised.
But the long arm of the law can't possibly be tyrannical! 🦖
Doing the Elon Musk "Well if you argue with me then you must be a pedophile" to justify locking up half of Twitter.
He's not wrong.
If you want to rehabilitate prisoners, you need to reintegrate them into society, which means they need to have their civil rights back. Otherwise, why did we bother fighting a war over slavery?
I'm looking at you, 13th amendment.
there's this bread company i love that's really loud about actively seeking out ex-convicts for employees and it makes me so happy to see, genuinely
Second is, make the government organization be bottom-up, democracy or not.
Most governments make decisions with their bottoms, if that counts
Bottom up, democracy or not?
Maybe I'm just showing my ignorance here, but what bottom up government style doesn't rely on some form of democracy?
Well yeah but all democracies have this enshrined in their laws one way or another. So it's not like something people don't already know.
13th amendment.
Hm? Oh - no reason.
I agree but it's important to differentiate between accused criminals and convicted criminals, and what specific diminution of rights we're talking about. Obviously jury-convicted violent criminals probably will suffer a harsher restriction on their rights than someone accused but not yet convicted of a minor misdemeanor. There will probably be a spectrum of restrictions on rights.
Are there people calling for all rights to be suspended upon indictment? Maybe on the fringes.
Cash bail is a suspension of rights for the poor upon arrest.
During the term of a sentence we suspend some rights and do not return them once someone has served their sentence.
If your nation has imprisoned enough people that allowing those prisoners to vote is a threat, you probably aren't the good guys.
Victims have rights too. People have a right to not be victimized by criminals.
You're arguing a completely separate point.
Yes, criminals should have rights. But those rights aren't all necessarily the same as those of non-criminal citizens. And when the rights of victims are trampled on in the guise of protecting criminal rights, there's a problem.
What if I told you that in a sufficiently corrupt system, the victims and criminals are mostly the same people.
You would convince me that your thinking processes have been muddied because you're bringing something that, insofar as it is true, is entirely irrelevant.
Can you name a time this happened?
From personal experience, yes. My convicted abuser husband was allowed to continue to abuse my kids. They struggle with mental illness.
My friend's husband who was convicted of sexually abusing his children was given visitation with them. Two out of three are now dead after struggling with mental illness their whole lives because of their abuser's right to continue access. He's walking free after serving a fraction of his time.
There are thousands of other examples that don't come from personal experience.
The LEFT IS ABUSING THIS. in south America gangs are let in control of jails!
Yeah sorry abusers should not be allowed to own guns.
The op is read as "should have some fundamental rights vs no rights" while you're turning the conversation into "all rights vs no rights" unless you intended to share another more nuanced point.
Criminals typically have controls in place, and should, depending on the nature of the crime.
I thought this was pretty clearly about free speech and the right to vote. Things that actually have the potential to make change.
I disagree with the conclusion. This makes a better case for separation of power so the person in charge can't look up the opposition
Swiss chees model of accident tyranny prevention
Governments are imperfect systems, you wanna have redundancies over redundancies. What you are saying is kinda like "I don't think we need separation of power, we just need to get the laws just right so noone can break their election promises and abuse their power".
As cheese layers go, not having a way of permanently stripping people of rights, and stripping prisoners of as few rights as possible temporarily, is a pretry solid cheese layer. In governments, it's relatively easy to introduce laws targeting critical systems of balance like protesting, because governments have to change laws as one of their main functions. Separation of power is nice, it limits bad (vague) laws, and allows implementing tiers of importance in laws like constitutional laws being harder to override than regular laws, among many other benefits. But if protesting is allowed in the cpnstitution, criminalize making noise yaknow.
This. If you are deliberating between several precautions that avert the same catastrophe, stop deliberating - just use all of them. Having to pick between precautions is only a problem if they are conflicting somehow, or if you have a limited "budget" - and neither is the case here.
What do you mean by separation of power? :)
As in, independent judical system, I would presume. Eg in the US, I believe, the president can put his guy as a supreme judge, but cannot remove him and cant really tell them what to do. On the other hand, in Russia, every time a major case happens, somewhere, a law school graduate shoots their brains out, as everything they learned in those years gets publicly humiliated and disregarded at a whim of crooks in power.
So you want to say killing Navalny in prison is ok?
Read the username on the picture. The "rights" discussed are the right to own guns.
But here's the thing, a tyrannical government doesn't let the opposition out of jail. Curtailing rights is a dumb way to look at things because that doesn't happen.
Consider the January 6th insurrectionists. Should any one of them be allowed to own a firearm? No. It's not tyrannical to think that.
Should they be allowed to vote? Yes.
Should they be thrown in prison forever? No.
Rightwing black and white definitions are stupid, don't fall for them. It's not "always the case" that someone losing a right is sufficient for a tyrannical government.
Navalny shouldn't have been thrown in prison in the first place. It wasn't his loss of access to guns that made it possible for Putin to murder him in prison.
literall--
Downvote.
You can promote a post even if it uses "literally" in an improper manner.
I hate to tell you this but usage makes definition, most modern dictionaries recognize hyperbole as an intensifier.
Is it grammatically correct? Hell no.
Is it real? Check for yourself.
Please don't literally be a jerk.
What is your plan to manage crime without limiting the rights of criminals?
Same thing as before, just dont block them from voting, serving jury duty, healthcare, jobs, etc after release, prison fees be damned.
You'll get life, most of it, or execution for murder, rape, significant theft, etc regardless.
Besides, limiting their rights creates more crime, as it locks away job opportunities that would help discourage stealing or killing plus gives them no incentive to work with police & government. If they move to crime again, lock em up again but for much longer. Not hard.
Does that work for you?
How about raise the burden of proof and stop courts from delaying a trial until I give up?
So not allowing someone to serve jury duty is limiting their rights, but its not limiting their rights to imprison of execute them? Also, even after being freed some people should have less rights. I don't care how much time a pedophile served, they should never be allowed to work anywhere near children. A drunk driver shouldn't be able to drive again for a long time.
Properly dealing with crime forces you to revoke some people's rights at least temporarily. I'm ok with trying to minimize that after time is served, but there is no changing that.
You're not describing a criminal, that's an ex-convict
Do you have any idea what rights are we talking about? This is the right for dignity, eatable food, meds, beds, etc.
The goal should be reducing criminality, right? So criminals should have the chance to reeducation and to go back to society. This can only be assured by law, with RIGHTS.
Those who disagree are the capitalist pigs who profit for incarcerating the poor, without any obligation for decent food, medications and lodging.
So I don't think those are the rights OP is referencing exactly. Criminals should absolutely have the right to the things you mentioned, but I think OP was referencing more the right to vote, hold office, etc. In some states (and countries throughout history) those with felony equivalent convictions lose access to civic related rights. This severely limits their ability to participate in and therefore influence political and civic discourse and direction.
Do you have any idea what rights are we talking about?
I'm sure there's more than a few people in here talking about gun ownership.
Yeah I agree, but don't you think its limiting someone's rights to imprison them in the first place? That's my entire point. Every method of reducing criminality other than simply ignoring it requires you to limit the rights of criminals.
"cRiMe" is not the issue, the unmet needs of people that motivate them to circumvent the system are the issue
No, crime is the issue. I get your point but meeting peoples needs won't just end crime somehow. It will drastically reduce it, but it will always be an issue.
I'm generally against cops and "tough on crime" measures but you only have to look at a few high profile criminals to see that some extremely destructive crimes are committed by people whose every conceivable material need is met. Trump in particular is a great example. He's also a great example of what happens certain crimes are not prosecuted.
Adding to what I have read in other comments: access to a free attorney, good prison conditions, possibility do work again after paying for the crime