TIL there is a law called Marchetti's Constant. Humans only tolerate commutes of less than ~1 hour. Housing outside that limit will fail.
Marchetti's constant - Wikipedia
This is totally bullshit, the Starbucks CEO hardly minds his 2-3ish hr commute from CA to Seattle by private jet.
If the poors weren't so stupid and lazy they'd buy jets for a more comfortable commute too. /s
I know a guy that's doing at least once a week, probably more, commute from DC to New York City. To be a product guy at a like 5 person company. As if you really need to be in a shared office to move jira tickets, ask eng again "How's that feature coming?", and so on. The CEO is a crazy person.
The CEO is also making the front end developer guy who lives in Connecticut come into the office 2-3 times a week. So he can work on his web page, the one with the code stored on github.
I hate all this "return to office" stuff. I don't care about management's feelings or real estate investments, and I don't care about people who hate their family and can't focus at home. Making people commute is a pay cut and a blow against labor.
My department just got called in for an RTO with zero warning, with 3 days in person for a ~160 person department.
There are ~20 desks available. Do the math.
This next week is going to be a disaster for their coked up idea of good business practices.
I'm in a position where I work with a team of 8 fixed employees that could easily work hybrid schedules. Our manager is hybrid though, and barely spends any time at the office. It creates such a difficult dynamic- our team works together really well but when our manager does come in it feels like an intrusion almost. Immediate us vs them just because everyone else spends so much time together.
And productivty drops for most people after 6 hours of working.
I have diabetic retinopathy and about 10 years ago, I saw enough blind spots that I stopped driving. My company accommodated me by letting me work from home. We already had another employee who was doing that for vision issues, it was simple to do.
Because we were successful, they replaced our desktops with laptops at refresh time and started letting everyone work from home 1 day a week. Then when Covid hit, they just told everyone to bring their laptops home and WFH full time. The CEO talked about return-to-office for a year or two but decided to make it optional.
It's an amazing benefit. It gave me back about 90 minutes every day, and my dog doesn't have to be crated during the day. I can sleep later and have access to my own kitchen for lunch. Theres a reason that average tenure in my department is around 20 years.
Anything beyond 45 minutes is a schlep and there better be something good for me losing an hour and a half or more of day in transit. Especially a car where I can't even read or relax.
Especially a car where I can't even read or relax.
I don't commute anymore, but spent close to 20 years with an hour commute each way. Audio books are the only way I can tolerate traffic.
I have that right now, 45-55 (depending on the traffic) to work by car. It's a pain but I can't really pick the worksite myself. Could change companies though but many have the same issue
Sounds legit, I turned down multiple higher roles in my last company after doing a test commute to the more remote office. It was consistently 90-120 minutes each way. That would end up with me be away at work for 12-13 hours each day for 8 hours of paid work.
Had a similar experience. Job wanted me but I'm not spending 2 hours commuting.
This was before remote work was a common thing.
My limit is 30 min, anything more than that is a fucking road trip, not a commute.
same. and even that is better paid well, because that increases my work time from 40 to 45 hours per week.
There are people at a place I worked that did a 2 hour trip each way each day.
That's me.
I work in a very small city entirely surrounded by a much larger one. The one I work for is an enclave for the 0.1%. The average new home build here is over 10 times the price that of the major city that surrounds us, which is also very expensive for the region.
Suffice to say, I can't live here. I live in a shitty trailer that's about 2 hours away with traffic, but costs $700 a month as opposed to $3000+ for a tiny 1-room apartment near work.
The commute sucks, but I save $115 every day I commute.
Fortunately, I like audio books.
Do you work in the Vatican?
How is the enclosed city not just considered part of the bigger city? I think I’ve never seen a city like that before.
Fortunately, I like audio books.
fam, try Pimsleur Speak & Understand language learning. A lot of libraries have them in CD form. That'll kill half hour to an hour easy.
yep, I work in Montreal, an island... crossing a bridge the morning and the evening is 1h in summer up to 3h in winter (one way!!!). At least since COVID I WFH, save 2h+ a day.
Fuck having to use a bridge to get to or from the South Shore for a commute. As soon as there is an accident your are screwed.
Obviously, this is a statistical truth. It doesnt necessarily apply to all individuals at all times.
I personally hit a wall at 41 minutes of in-car travel time for a daily commute. I've timed it. Every second after that feels like a whole level of abnormal waiting, a kind of cold torture or injustice that you must wade through to to your destination. It's not a healthy headspace at all. I've naturally sought out shorter commutes after this revelation, and yeah, the 30 minute estimate seems right.
I used to have about an hour long commute, and I kinda enjoyed it. I had shit to do at work, and shit to do at home, so being in the car for a while really let me calm down and center myself most of the time.
Imagine you had 2hours more every day so you could work through the todo at home and enjoy the rest of your time at home or anywhere else that is neither your work nor your car.
I get it, but I just can't get to that place mentally in stop-and-go-bumper-to-bumper traffic for that long. Not even half that long. If that was a nice 50mph cruise the whole time, sure.
I do wonder if the limit varies between personally operated transport (walking, bike, car) and public transport (bus, tram, train).
A 1 hour bus journey is much more relaxing than a 1 hour drive.
Not always. During rush hour, most buses will operate at their maximum passenger capacity, if you're one of the many that's not seated, it's anything but relaxing or comfortable.
With good enough infrastructure and with good enough working culture, it stops being a problem. More transport options, more units in rush hours, better logistics, morr flexible hours, that sort of things
I wonder how this looks for people with flexible commuting methods. I can bike to work (45 mins each way) or take the train with some walking (40 mins), or take the metro to the train with very little walking (50 mins). The fact that it's sometimes exercise helps break it up, and I don't much mind it
Imagine having a choice for how you get to your destination
(this comment made by the American gang)
Would you like to commute in a car, or in a pickup truck?
Yup, it was a big factor in where we wanted to go outside of the US. I can't imagine going back to car life again
To me, two hours of my life I'm not getting back looks like two hours of my life I'm not getting back. Happy to do that for the exercise or something some of the time, but regularly it's a very high cost.
Yeah, when I lived in the US I had ~15 mins to work at ~30 home and I loathed it. I bike probably 85-90% of the time so I really just see it as my cardio time and appreciate it
I’ve in my entire life never had this short a commute. All the following is one-way commute: 45 minutes to school growing up. 2,5 hours to university 5 days a week for years. 1,5-2 hours to work since. Since the pandemic only 2 days a week though, which is a relief.
Sure it would be nice if it were shorter, but using public transport helps. At least I get to relax, play a game, knit, etc. And not living in a polluted city and having a yard makes it worthwhile.
using public transport helps. At least I get to relax, play a game, knit, etc.
This is true, but only if it’s not crowded and you get to sit down. The same commute time feels completely different during rush hour and off-peak.
True. Luckily I haven’t needed to stand in a long while. Makes the commute a lot less fun when that’s necessary. But at least there’s audiobooks.
Why haven't you moved closer? When I started university, I could've had a 1,5 hour commute by car but I moved closer and now it's 5 min by bike
During university the only financially viable way would have been student housing. There wasn’t any that would have taken in me, my husband and our cat.
And since then see above: it’s nice to not live in the busy air pollution of the city and be able to afford a house with a yard. Best thing possible within 30 minutes of work within our budget would have been a small apartment with roommates.
Won't it be easier for you to live near your job place. 2 hours to and from work each day is exhaustive. Don't you think ? What is your job ?
Maybe if it was just me I’d do that. But I love our house and garden and the quiet and dark late at night and the clean(er) air. And with a husband and pets a cohabitation situation in a small place in a city just isn’t ideal. The only thing it would save me is commute time, but as I use my commute to be productive or relax it doesn’t feel like nearly enough of a burden to even consider it.
If I still had to do the commute daily I’d switch jobs though, but I wouldn’t go and live anywhere closer to where most of the good jobs are.
I mean, it sounds like you're spending 12 hours a day in a polluted city so....
Currently only 2 days a week at the moment. And 4 of those 12 hours I’m in public transport, most of which is in the train and no longer inside is the city. So meh, not really.
But even if that were true, what’s the argument you’re trying to make? Already spending 12 hours in a polluted city so I shouldn’t bother with the other 12? Also weekends still exist.
When I interviewed at a company some years ago, the commute would have been ~an hour on a normal day (potentially longer if I did park-n-ride). I was very forward about wanting to only come into the office once or maybe twice a week. The manager I was talking with brushed off my commute time by basically saying that the commute wasn't that long and he knew others that commuted much longer. That was a huge red flag for me and I did not proceed with them. I don't care what others will tolerate. If management is going to ignore concerns like that, I don't want to work there. It was really apparent that he wouldn't let me work from home more than maybe once a week if I was lucky.
I don’t think people who made this law ever lived in Toronto. I used to do a 90 minute commute each way, 2 hours easy during afternoon rush.
My company closed its Scarborough location, they opened a new plant in Hamilton. I was going to commute to the new plant. Everyone, including upper management told me how stupid that was. We have to run our logistics during the night because the truck drivers refused to drive in traffic during the day. Truck drivers... How bad is the traffic if truck drivers are refusing
My dad commuted 2.5 hours each way my entire childhood. All through the 90's. It wasn't until DSL got to my parent's area in the 2010s and I was out of college that he could work a hybrid schedule. I couldn't do it. I work 30min away, hybrid 2/5 of the time. It's still more time than I want to soend in the car.
Marchetti never went to NYC.
I was thinking that it sounded about right, until I read beyond the headline:
Its value is approximately one hour, or half an hour for a one-way trip.
WHAT. I thought he meant one hour each way!
Are there any cities where that is the norm??? I've had sub-30 commutes in my life, and it felt like the height of luxury.
I had a 1.5 hour (one way) commute for a while, and I was burned the fuck out after a year of that. It takes a toll on your health.
This is my current hell. When I started it was 3x/week so it wasn't too bad, but now it's 4, and there's a "rumor" that it's gonna go back to full time in at some point. Thanks for the motivation to get my next certification as fast as possible I guess, because I'm already working on exit strategies.
Marchetti was from Italy. That explains it.
Or Kansas… there aren’t a great many urban centers with diverse job markets so people routinely commute in from over an hour at my workplace.
Looks at Toronto and 3 hour commutes…
I do an hour and a half single trip. It's only twice per week and it's by train. So I read a book or I bring my steamdeck. I really don't mind it. I'd be less happy if it was 5 days per week. I'd still be going by train, but also looking for a better job.
I could've written every single word in your comment! And surprisingly enough, the commute is one of the best part of my day. The only issue is the time I get up and the time I come home.
If my commute isn’t a 30 second walk to my home office I won’t take the job.
Back in the 90’s and 2000’s my commute ranged between 30-60 minutes by car one way to a combination of 15 minutes driving and 30-45 minutes on a subway.
Since shortly before the pandemic my commute has been up a flight of stairs to our guest bedroom that’s now my office.
I’m never going back.
laugh-cries in 4 hour commute to a job only 50 miles away
Fuck the Altamonte, man... Where's our fucking high-speed train?
You just have to get through during off hours. I worked with a guy in livermore who came up and around from turlock every day. If he left at 430, he would get in to work around 530. But if he left at 5, it would be 630 minimum, typically more like 7 or 730. I can't imagine if he tried to get through during actual peak traffic. Homie would almost always leave early on Fridays and we didn't blame him because it'd take him 3 hours to get home otherwise.
So don't hire humans. Isn't that how the original Planet of the Apes started?
Neat. Anecdotally I can confirm that as I work construction so have a variable commute. 30 minutes is fine, 45 an inconvenience, and an hour having me thinking about quitting.
Then his law has failed.
There are plenty of successful housing areas much farther out than 30 minutes one way (the 1 hour is daily). Nearly everyone I know has a longer commute than that.
Maybe it's the commuters that failed to find a job that's close enough to be tolerable. I worked one job for a few months where I had a 1-hour each way commute, and it sucked so I job hunted enough to find one with a more tolerable 30-minute commute.
I would rather live in a cardboard box in an alley than commute for more than 15 minutes
Where I live it is that people want bigger houses for their families, so they take a long commute instead of a small house with no yard. A guy at my company literally flies a small plane to work everyday. Another has a 100mi commute each way, so he comes in at like 5am to avoid most of the traffic.
They should make this a literal law for car commutes. Waste of gas, waste of human sanity, and a bane of CO2 emissions.
I would almost go so far as to call commuting further a mark of a class traitor, but also, to make it worth it, you should be making enough to put you in the top 10% of earners anyways ... I guess I'll specify, you should be netting that much after gas and taxes, and if not, let me ask you: Why, just why do that to yourself?
Maybe that would work in sane countries, but in the USA people lost their shit when someone merely suggested cities should be walkable.
Some people lost their shit, and the media made them out to be the majority. Individual states and counties still have more power and influence than you might think.
Not that I'm not eyeing my escape routes to a saner country anyways.
I assume because they can't find work closer to them, and can't afford to move / have something holding them where they are at that time. No one's doing it because they want too
You're talking what's available to employees. I'm talking hiring choices. I'm not suggesting penalizing employees for commuting, although enough working people identify with this non-sense that its not out of the question either. My stance is no more extreme than the absurdity of what I'm against.
Employers should be more about helping with moving expenses if they can't find the talent they want close enough, and if the talent doesn't want to or can't afford to live close-by, look at increasing pay or even moving their operations. Instead of demanding people come off work-from-home to drive who-knows-how-far-away, the rules should say they can't do that. Maybe they could open satellite offices if its worth even half the non-sense they spew.
Luckily I now do 2 days in the office but I have a drive commute of around 90 mins each way and maybe 75 mins in school holidays. For around 9 months without a cat I was taking the tram and train with a walk either end which took around 120-150 mins each way
I could not tolerate that full time but I’ve no doubt many people do.
There was a pretty large, family-run business near me, it was a pretty popular local landmark, and it sat on a pretty big property, probably a handful of acres.
The owner died, his kids didn't really want to run the place, so they did everything they could to run it into the ground so that they say that it wasn't profitable to avoid some of the backlash from closing it down.
They had some sort of scheme to turn it into housing for homeless veterans. Noble enough idea I suppose, though I don't know how they thought that was going to work, let alone be profitable.
Of course there was a bit of the usual NIMBY backlash, veterans or not, a lot of people don't particularly want some low income housing project springing up in their neighborhood.
But more importantly, it just didn't seem like anyone was particularly interested in living there.
This is sort of the rural end of the suburbs. We're not out in the country, I'd hesitate to even call it exurban, but things are less dense, not much is walkable, no public transportation, there's not all that much around. A couple of the basics are nearby like a grocery store, but not much beyond that.
If you have a car and money for gas, it's not a terrible place to be, pretty much anything you could want is within about a 30-45 minute drive, if traffic cooperates, you might even be able to get downtown in the city in about an hour.
But thinking about it in the context of a bunch of homeless people, what the hell are they supposed to do? Not many opportunities for them to find work around there, certainly not anything well-paying enough to help them improve their situation by much. If they need any sort of mental health or drug/alcohol treatment, their options would be severely limited there. It's not at all convenient to the VA hospital nearest to us. And unless they manage to get their hands on a car, they'd basically be stuck there to sit at home, or maybe wander around town and do nothing in particular.
So that project never got off the ground.
take the train Jane (refresh your brain)
Just get on the bus, gus
Living in walkable area - luxury Having a good commute - luxury
As if the entire system is designed around somebody else's needs
I spent the first 10 years of my working life in commuting traffic hell, where a 26km drive took 2 hours in a superdense megacity. I bought a condo 1km away from work when I could finally afford it. WFH, which I have been doing the past 8 years or so has done wonders for my sanity. And even then, I’m now in a place where an 18 mile drive to the office takes 30 mins in regular traffic.
Guess my hour+ ebike commute is doomed to fail then.
Good luck. I enjoy doing that several times a month on my ebike but five times a week isn't my jam. I'm moving in a few months and my 10 minute commute is going to 45+ minutes... I'm probably going to look for something closer (or wfh) rather than try to do that in January. Helps that my boss's boss is an asshole and I'm not paid that well.
No, just your house fails. You continue to commute, but you return to vacant land each night.
This is objectively false in NYC.
laughs in Houstonian
100% Fake, this is not My or half or My city (Santiago CL) reality, 1h is not that long.
Pretty sure the unstated requirement is Given a choice, ...
I switched jobs in part because 35 minutes each way was too long. New job is 12 minute drive and I am eying jobs that are a 5 minute walk.
lol
Marchetti intended the constant to be 1 hour round trip, so a half-hour commute one-way. It's an important distinction, since here in Atlanta the exurban commuter is clocking in at 1.5 hours or more into the city, well outside of what is considered tolerable. Multiply that by a million and you get some irritated people.
Is housing that expensive in Atlanta?
Its traffic is notoriously bad, so you don't have to live far away to deal with a long commute.
We have a lot of sprawl here and the reasons are many. Just like Dallas and LA, we have a ton of road infrastructure and zoning laws that eat up a lot of land. We also don't have any natural barriers, like an ocean or a mountain range, to limit our expansion. Just to keep building and add another lane. Thanks for asking.
Also in the greater Atlanta and can confirm. My job thankfully has me work from home as much as I can (I also travel a lot, which requires getting a vehicle from the office). But it's still a nightmare every time I do have to go in.
I still don't think that this could be called a constant when you've got folks like myself who live in a major city, 8 miles away from our workplaces, and still see 2 hour total commutes per day.
We should strip the inheritance if anyone who is related to folks who demolished the streetcar system.
You must be biking really slowly.