Data privacy: how to counter the "I have nothing to hide" argument?

Ask them to unlock their phone and give it to you. Chances are, you'll quickly find out they have things they'd like to hide.

One thing I often see is people not understanding the difference between secrecy and privacy. They ask why it matters if you're not doing anything wrong. A UK government minister actually said "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear", and then backpedaled when someone pointed out they were quoting Joseph Goebbels. The analogy I've seen is simple: I'm sure you don't do anything illegal in the shower, but I'm also pretty sure most people would be uncomfortable with a law that required you to have a police officer standing in you bathroom with a video camera to record you showering, just in case.

The other thing is the assumption that any information about you that the government actually has about you will only be used against you if you commit a crime, in which case you'll deserve it - if you're not a bad person then it's fine. This is a double fallacy.

First, we've seen that information can be used to do all sorts of things regardless of wrongdoing - if someone knows enough about you, they can use it to manipulate you. I don't mean blackmail or whatever, although that's an option. I mean that with a clear enough picture of your preferences and biases and habits, someone can tailor their actions and information to your psychology and make you think whatever they want you to agree with.

Second, it assumes that you won't ever commit a crime because crimes are bad things and you're not a bad person. This overlooks the possibility of you being mistakenly accused while innocent, but more importantly it overlooks the possibility that the government will change into something that holds different moral values to yours. Even in the modern world we've seen places outlaw abortions, or criminalise homosexuality, or pass laws on what religions you're allowed to follow. If that happens in your country and you find yourself on the wrong side of whatever arbitrary line they've now drawn, you may regret giving them so much information about you - information that lets them identify you, prove that you broke their new rules, and ruin your life in so many ways.

The default principal of any exchange with governments, businesses, or any entity taking your information should be to give as much information as is required for them to perform the operation you're requesting of them, and no more - and wherever possible to only engage with those entities that you trust to have that information; a trust that they earn by a verified and unbroken track record of ethical and trustworthy behaviour.

"But, when I talk to people in general, most seem to not worry because they “have nothing to hide”, and most are only worried about their passwords, banking apps and not much else."

Sounds like they have passwords and banking apps to hide, You should demand their bank account and credit card details to verify that they have made no illicit actions.

If they point out that they have no reason to trust you with that information, that's when you point out that police, government, or corporate groups are made out of people just like yourself. They might have some codes of conduct, or a vetting process, but it just takes one person malicious or careless enough for you to be severely impacted.

I feel like the people in this thread saying you should ask for personal details are kind of missing the point of the 'nothing to hide' argument. It's not that they feel they have nothing to hide from everyone, it's that they feel they have nothing to hide from those with access to their data (governments/corporations). Knowing intimate life details of someone you know personally is very different from knowing intimate life details of some random person you'll never meet. I would argue something like this instead:

Unless you're a newborn, everyone in the US has broken thousands of laws in their life. It's unavoidable. If corporations/the government have records of all that, if people don't have privacy, the powers that be have the power to put anyone and everyone in prison for the rest of their lives at their discretion.

Even if you're not worried now, once your data is out there it's not coming back. You may agree with the policy of government and corporations now, but can you be sure that'll be the case in ten years? Twenty? Thirty? Who knows how laws and regimes will change, and through all that, they'll always have power over you.

Ask them for their social security number, mother’s maiden name, favorite pet, favorite teacher, high school mascot. It should start to dawn on them

Saying "I don't need privacy because I've got nothing to hide" is like saying "I don't need free speech because I've got nothing to say".

Data privacy isn’t to protect you from getting caught doing wrong things, it’s to prevent malicious actors from having the information to manipulate you. You don’t want phishers to have access to your life details that security questions ask about, even if each one is nothing to hide. You don’t want scammers to know where you went to school, who your teachers were, and what clubs you were in to build up a convincing backstory for their facade. You don’t want someone who wants to get something out of you to know who is important to you and threaten or impersonate them. It’s not about having something to hide, it’s about hiding personal details from those with malicious intent

You may have nothing to hide now but what if your (political) opponents reach a point where they have access to your data and the (political) power to use it? What happens if they don't like your opinions which (you think) you don't have to hide now?

My opinions may mostly align with the current general consensus in my country and since I'm not politically active I am rather unlikely to be harmed because of my opinions in the foreseeable future (unless I call someone 1 Pimmel). But there are certain developments that are troubling and there are people who don't like what I've said on the internet (duh). Now, I'm not exactly anyone important and realistically there are far more important targets than me personally. But still, it's not unthinkable that the things I've said (things I've looked at on the internet, things I've bought, things I've like/upvoted) might be used to my detriment if certain people came into a position where they have access to any stored data on me.

This applies regardless of your political leanings. If data exists, no matter how harmless it may seem, there's always the possibility of people who REALLY don't like it getting access.

Edward Snowden remarked:

Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say.

There is a wikipedia article regarding this argument

I feel like most replies here are missing the point.

The entire premise of the statement is that privacy is about defending your dirty secrets. When people say "nothing to hide" they're really saying "I'm not going to post about anything I want to hide", but that still misses the point.

For me it's the subtle principles of advertising. I don't want to be advertised to, at all. I certainly don't want some blog to know what adverts I'm likely to engage with, because that is simply none of their business.

That's it. If that doesn't bother some people, that's entirely fine. I'm a bit weird, and the whole idea of being tracked to figure out what things I might want to buy makes me very grumpy.

Edward Snowden, a former National Security Agency contractor and government whistleblower, has been credited with the quote "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say". Snowden has argued that privacy is a fundamental right and that without it, individuals cannot have anything for themselves. The "nothing to hide" argument has been used to defend the collection and use of government data beyond surveillance and disclosure, but critics argue that it is inherently paradoxical and that what is hidden is not necessarily relevant. Snowden has also stated that the burden of justification falls on those seeking to infringe upon human rights, and that nobody needs to justify why they "need" a right.

Cite historical examples of seemingly innocuous, public information falling into the wrong hands.

e.g. The Nazis used demographic records (marriages, births, christenings, etc.) in conquered lands to ID Jews and other "undesirables".

They are appealing to the fallacy that hiding things means bad behavior.

Not true. There are plenty of good reasons to hide things. Social security numbers, income, bank account info, even personal preferences.

Privacy != bad

Maybe you don't think you have anything to hide today, but what about the future? Millions of women gave their period-tracking apps that kind of personal/private data when Roe was in effect because at the time, states couldn't use it to prosecute women who miscarry or get abortions. Now that Roe is gone, that data is out there and can't be recalled.

By the same token, everyone who went out and got a 23-and-me genetic test gave their genomes to private companies who can legally sell that information to insurance companies that can use that information to hike their premiums or terminate their policies if they think your genes predispose you to some expensive-to-treat condition. Also those family trees don't lie about whose kids are the product of adultery, hahahahaha

You do have things to hide in the sense that they're nobody else's business.

Also, some countries have established digital privacy as a right (in particular, EU countries) and that's not just about protecting your dirty stinky secrets, it's also about preventing social media being weaponized as political or information warfare vectors based on private information obtained without your consent. (the same profiling used to target relevant commercial ads to you is also usable to target information warfare and propaganda to your susceptible relatives, and they vote in addition to giving racist rants at holiday dinner)

In other words, your privacy is intrinsically valuable- if it wasn't, exploiting your private information wouldn't be a multi-billion-dollar industry

Ask them how much they make or their medical record.

Tell them you will pay google several cents for that info.

How Target Knew a High School Girl Was Pregnant Before Her Parents Did

Facebook turned over chat messages between mother and daughter now charged over abortion

It is like saying you don’t need free speech if you don’t have anything to say. *corrected hide to say.

The awful story from that mother and daughter that had their private conversations send to court for abortion by Meta: https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/11/teen-and-mom-plead-guilty-to-abortion-charges-based-on-facebook-data/?guccounter=1

I use a monetary argument.. If my data can become revenue to the company then I must have a part of this revenue ..if they are not paying me for my property (my data) then I should keep my data from them

“You have nothing to hide until the government decides you do.” And by then it’ll be too late to hide it.

ask for their passwords

I got nothing to hide in my asshole either, doesn't mean I want you rifling around through there. Its creepy

I generally ask the person whether they close the door when they go take a dump. Everyone does it, everyone knows why you're going into that room.

If you have nothing to hide, you wouldn't mind handing me your unlocked phone so I can scroll through your texts and search history, go ahead.

Just ask them a bunch of indiscreet questions. Do you watch porn? What category of porn turns you on the most? Do you think it's appropriate to have sex in a room on the ground floor without curtains? What? You own curtains? What is your salary? What's the amount of money in your savings account? Why do you have so many loud disagreements with your partner? Don't you like visiting your in-laws? What's inside the drawer at the bottom, next to your bed? Have you had any embarassing and cringy moments in the last few years you'd like to share?

Of course this is only the beginning. It's not like the corporations collect data and then don't do anything with it. You'd also have to be okay with them deducing information about you. Try to use that information to manipulate you into giving them attention, buying the stuff they want you to buy. That system is in place to nudge you into thinking what the algorithm wants you to think. App developers are actively trying to make the apps more addicting so you spend more time with them... People just get exploited with the help of all of that data.

If people really are that tame and have no secret fantasies, no sensitive data, no shame, no personal shortcomings they'd like to forget... And they don't care about the annual security breaches of big platforms people use willingly, but that information then gets used by people who use it to send you spam or impersonate you and trick your grandma to send her retirement to some scammer... And they like to be shoved around by big corporations like cattle, used to fuel the capitalist system... ...I myself tend to leave them alone. There is nothing that can be done at this point. Those people are lost, and they don't want freedom for themselves.

What you need to hide now is not the same as what you will need to hide in the future.

This is a good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument

I usually reply with "Cool, you won't mind if I install a camera in your bathroom then"

Ask them for nudes, their porn habits, what toys they have and what their dirtiest kinks are.

"Show me the man and I'll show you the crime" Lavrentiy Beria, Stalin's secret police chief bragged that he could prove criminal conduct on anyone, even the innocent.

Before Hitler, why wouldn't you put down you were Jewish.

You may have nothing to hide now. But who knows how it'll be used against you in the future. The less people know about you, the better.

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It's not what you have to hide, it's how they want to use what they can see. They can weaponize anything and the only reason you don't care yet is that they haven't made you a target yet.

Continued good luck.

"How often do you and your wife fuck?"

"Right on, so let me rifle through your nightstand"

Then I can place a camera and mic in your house and watch you all day ? No ?

"Take your pants off and walk outside"

People who wear clothes automatically lose this argument.

Lock you house? Close your window blinds? Lock the door when you go to the bathroom?

Yep, you've things to hide.

Ask them: How much money do they have in their bank account? How often do they have sexual relations?

Data privacy? I have nothing to hide. Freedom of speech? I have nothing to say.

I mean, if you have nothing to hide, then surely you don't need window blinds or a bedroom door? It should also mean that it's okay for guests to rifle through your closet and dresser drawers, right?

Realistically there isn't one. People dropping that argument are not interested in a dialectic.

It ultimately doesn't matter if you have nothing to hide. Some people do and have good, ethical, reason to. Universal privacy is the only way to ensure necessary privacy.

"Okay, unlock your phone, open WhatsApp and hand it to me."

They don't choose what they need to hide, if their government outlaws woodworking tomorrow, then any carpenters today go from "having nothing to hide" to "I need to hide my entire career and hobby" overnight and in their sleep.

And then the government threatens Facebook to hand over messages from any user suspected of woodworking, and then they get persecuted and arrested

The government threatens Google to hand over all browser history from suspected woodworkers, Apple for all iCloud photos from suspected woodworkers, Amazon for all woodworking related purchases

It goes on

If the carpenter cared about privacy from the start, then the government just wouldn't be able to find them and arrest them for simply woodworking

But the carpenter didn't care about privacy, they "had nothing to hide" yesterday, so when that law goes into effect tomorrow the government will have a really easy time finding them

I have nothing to hide but I still don't want you watching me poop.

Nothing to hide until a person has something to hide. An attitude of "I don't have anything to hide" may catch up to a person. No one knows what the future holds. One day they might start tracking private information a person does not want tracked, for example financial or medical data. So better to put the fence up now than try to put it up during a stampede.

Personally I keep my data private with a reasonable amount of effort. I try to keep a small internet footprint and there's stuff I won't do for the sake of privacy. Going some years back the only social media I engaged in was Reddit until coming here to Lemmy. These are anonymous mediums. It blows my mind that so many people are willing to completely splay out their lives non-anonymously on social media.

One very good point I heard once is this: You have nothing to hide NOW, but what if a government raises that somehow views you as a menace? What if you don't agree.

What if something that you can't change about yourself, say your religion, your sexual preference etc. This has happened before and is happening right now in some countries.

What counters it is the fact that you might not have anything to hide now but you might have to hide something in the future. Circumstances might change, your country might turn into an authoritarian dictatorship over time, that declares a quality or behavior of yours to be illegal. They can and will use all your data against you to prosecute you.

Turn it on them. Ask them to give up something private in front of you like their phone or wallet. Hey, if they have nothing to hide then they shouldn't worry... But they will.

I have done nothing illegal and nothing wrong, yet I have everything to hide.

I don't trust what judgements our governments 10 years from now wants to put on me, my family and my children based on my current loud political acceptance of trans rights, free abortion, and my express hatred of fascism.

"Having nothing to hide" sounds like worrying about getting in trouble from data. But you can also get yourself and others into trouble being tracked or manipulated without consent.

A big problem is that data does not usually go away (even of you erase or delete it or forgot you shared it).

Any data you reveal can build up over time. The more data available on you, the easier it is to triangulate, to find you specifically.

And patterns happen over time. More data on your habits makes it easier to predict what you do, easier to manipulate you. Not just with advertisements or insurance rates, I mean outright scams. For example, my grandfather got conned out of $5k by a scammer who could impersonate my cousin based on the cousin's facebook, linkedin, and public records.

We also have very little insight into how much data we generate. Especially online, we can't imagine the amount of logged activity and data generated. This makes it hard to meaningfully say "I don't have a problem with how somebody uses my data" because we can't even grasp the scale of the data and how it can be used.

I also second another poster who mentioned you don't have anything to hide now, but times change. You can't go back and protect data once it's used against you! I have firsthand experience with that in Texas, USA. I worked with a company that realized in July 2022 that they should NOT record if people were pregnant in a huge database. We didn't want to have data on a pregnancies that may not work out for whatever reason in Texas because it could be used against people.

One I came across a while ago is simple - Curtains. We all close ourselves to the outside world.

A lot of the rebuttals in this thread are non-sensical. Why would I let someone use my phone for no reason?

When people say they don’t care about privacy, they don’t really mean it. What they mean is they are willing to sacrifice some of it for the sake of convenience, safety, or something else they find valuable. That’s certainly a valid trade-off to make. If you’re trying to convince someone they should care more about privacy, that entirely depends on the person.

Just ask them for their phone. Don't say what for.

"Of course you do."

Do you want your mother to know how you dirty talk to your girlfriend, or what sort of porn you watch? do you want her watching you jerk off? Do you want your boss to know about that rash on your dick? Going further, do you think every pretty girl you walk up to should know about every dirty thought you have about them? Do you want that guy you hate at work to actually know exactly what you want to do to him?

Anyone who thinks they have nothing to hide aren't thinking hard enough.

As the Cypherpunk Manifesto says:

Privacy is not secrecy. A private matter is something one doesn't want the whole world to know, but a secret matter is something one doesn't want anybody to know. Privacy is the power to selectively reveal oneself to the world.

... An anonymous transaction system is not a secret transaction system. An anonymous system empowers individuals to reveal their identity when desired and only when desired; this is the essence of privacy.

People can desire privacy for privacy's sake. Wanting privacy doesn't necessarily mean they're criminals who need anonymity or secrecy to cover up illegal/immoral acts; it just means they're human.

For an offline example, consider that you're a cis girl in a women's locker room. You know everyone knows you have certain body parts, and you have nothing to "hide" due to this, but you still don't want to be stared at as you peel off your swimsuit.

There's a certain irony in the degree of privacy discussion and advocacy on the fediverse, where even your upvotes and downvotes are part of the public record.

That's, coupled with lackluster security vetting for server software and infrastructure across multiple instances means that invariably cross correlating your likes of furry porn with the email used in the account is going to happen in the future.

A lot of people are going to end up burned thinking that "non-corporate operation" = 'private.'

Some things are private but not illegal, like taking a shit. There are zero good reasons to intrude on that scene and anyone who tries is suspect. Who cares if you have something to hide? Why are we ok with letting a megacorporation give us a digital colonoscopy when we're only trying to live our lives?

Du you lock the door to the toilet? What are you doing in there that's so secret?

That is a clear example of that there are legitimate things that you want to keep private.

"So what's the IP address of your toilet webcam"

Using a smartphone today is like buying a house and discovering that is full of cameras and microphones spying you. Would you accept thtat?

'No one's spying on me, I'm not interesting' is more pernicious than Nothing to Hide. Most adults can kind of sense the idiocy of the latter refrain. But ask the utterer why advertising is a trillion-dollar industry if their attitudes and behaviours aren't interesting, or why a data broking industry even exists, and you'll typically be asked 'why care?'

What's harder to work out is whether the utterance is a genuine failure to comprehend the nature of surveillance capitalism, or a grasping denial of its impact, as though they're only 80 per cent convinced of their footprint's worthlessness. It's difficult to convince someone to turn down their data faucet when they barely acknowledge the faucet's existence to start with.

"I have nothing to hide"

"cool, let me have your credit card number and billing address"

I usually show them this video of Pasco county using "predictive policing" (AKA "intelligence-led policing") to terrorize citizens into moving out of town.

My colleague gave me that response. I asked if I could go through his off-facebook activities for fun. "Sure, got nothing to hide" About 5 seconds in he could bare it and asked me to leave him alone. Lol

...but you still close the door when you go to the lavatory, right? Why? It's not like we don't know exactly what you do there.

The argument here is that it's no secret, but it is personal and nobody's business. If you don't want Zuck to watch you pee then you should also not want him reading your texts to your lover.

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I like to say something along the lines of this "Why do you close the door when you use the restroom? You don't have anything to hide right? It's only natural what you're doing in there. It's because you want privacy and the same goes for your data online."

It's a basic human right, and if you're in a restrictive country like North Korea or China, data privacy means everything because individuals don't know if they're saying something wrong that could put them in danger.

A friend from college who is Chinese told me that whenever they go back to China for holidays, they have to clear out all the chat history on WeChat, a messaging app commonly used in China. This is because sometimes Chinese guards pick someone's phone and check for any content that could be seen as critical of China.

I may have nothing to hide, but that doesn't mean I want it on public display either.

The Jews in 1939 Germany did nothing wrong.

I usually take the angle of asking them if they act differently when they know they're being watched and to imagine a life where they're always watched.

You may have nothing to hide, but have you seen what ChatGPT or Midjourney can do? How easily it can AI turn text into an image, or text into reply? Do you realize that the data you are not hiding is used to teach an AI how to manipulate you? It knows who you are, what you like, and most importantly - it is slowly learning (on all of the people who "have nothing to hide") exactly what to show to you on FB/YT, to eventually manipulate you into doing whatever they asked it to do.

Do you spend a lot of time on YT/FB/IG? Are you happy with doing that, or do you think you should be spending more time doing something else? The more data they have from anyone, including you, the better will the AI be at simply keeping you glued to the screen no matter what. And it's only a matter of time before someone uses it to change how you vote, or what you think. And you will not notice that, because it has so much data about you, and so much data about everyone, that it's as good at manipulating you without you noticing based on the data it has about you, as Midjourney is in generating pictures based on the text you give to it. And the only way how they could teach Midjourney to do that, was by giving it a lot of data about pictures.

I just came to the realisation, that all those cold calls where no one says anything are probably just recording for recreating your voice sigh...

Some people just don’t care and will never care. Everyone makes decisions about what to worry bout. For some it’s being vegan/vegetarian, others web privacy, some others won’t concern themselves with either.

Humans have a limited capacity to care about things, and despite our best efforts not everyone is going to care.

If you believe that you have nothing to hide, and therefore you don't need to care about your privacy, it is of the same nature as the following behaviors: Not caring about freedom of speech because you have nothing to say; not caring about freedom of the press because you don't like to read; not caring about freedom of religion because you don't believe in God; not caring about freedom of assembly because you are lazy, dislike crowds, or have a fear of public squares.

Well, maybe you are:

• Planning a surprise party
• Leaving a job
• Trying to escape an abusive relationship
• Famous
• Writing a detective novel
• A writer without a publisher
• Searching about an embarrassing medical condition
• Having a crush in someone
• In the closet
• A teenager with controlling parents
• Having a hobby that's considered embarrassing or childish
• Having a psycho stalker
• Buying a present from Santa
• A reporter who doesn't want to reveal their sources
• Buying a toilet and you don't want toilet recommendations for the rest of your life
• Lending your computer to someone, and you don't want your recommended videos to change
• Under an NDA

... Or maybe you're talking with someone who's in one of those categories.

We have to normalise privacy in order to keep these people safe. For instance, it's a stupid example but it works, if I always use private browser windows, my husband won't suspect anything when I'm looking for a gift for him.

That's only the tip of the iceberg and it's not even touching some bigger problems:

• You can be profiled based on your likes, social media posts, purchase history, etc, and maybe used for election results manipulation, or who knows what else. That's not a conspiracy theory, it has happened, see for instance Cambridge Analytica.
• Maybe the political situation will change in the future. Oops, now your data is suddenly in the hands of a malicious dictator.
• If you keep a backdoor open to let the "good and trusted" actors in, there's no way to not let malicious actors in as well.

Look out, fascism is on the rise again.

I think part of the issue is that people in general don't think very much beyond themselves. To be sure, privacy issues do affect them personally whether they acknowledge it or not, but it also has implications for the sort of society in which we live and what's permissible for companies and governments to do. That affects everyone. In terms of how to get people to care about things on that level, clever memes is probably more likely to sway people than elaborate persuasive arguments. They're just more effective at getting ideas into people's minds when they'd otherwise not think about them at all.

"Unlock your phone and let me look though then"

You absolutely have data to hide. Data that can be used to rob your identity like your birth date and SSN, your financial statements that can make you the target of criminals, your various usernames and passwords, your medical history, etc. Next time they tell you this argument, ask them for this data since "they have nothing to hide", and if they give it to you, you will know they are complete idiots whom you should probably move away from.

Well, it's a bullshit argument. Do the "nothing to hide" people shit with all the doors and windows open or on a video stream? Do the "nothing to hide" people freely give out their bank details or nudes?

There is absolutely no reason to assume the government can be trusted to keep your private info private. If anything there is good reason to assume it won't be or it will be used against you. Maybe there is a leak or someone gets into power that shouldn't.

From a legal perspective it doesn't make any sense either. Political winds change governments and laws. Things you feel will always be legal may not be in the future. We could easily have a red scare 2.0 or get fascism in power.

Society changes as well. How many people are fucked over by online activity or picture from a decade ago? Lots of common social stances have not aged well. Crap kids say or document online will begin to affect them as an adult. Look at how some people target lgbt groups just for existing.

"I have nothing to hide."

Until regressives make normal shit illegal, as they often try to do.

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Even if you have nothing to hide yourself (which, as other commenters said, is very unlikely), and can be certain you'll never have anything to hide ever (even less probable), there will be other people who do have something to hide. That does not mean they are evil (though some are) - maybe they are fighting for a cause, or maybe they are persecuted minorities, or maybe governments and/or powerful organizations will want to bring them harm.

These people, being mere humans, have some minor secrets in their past or present that can be signal-boosted by a malevolent agent to seriously hurt them, their reputation, and/or their social standing. And even if they did mange to obtain the level of sainthood that the have-noving-to-hide folks seem to possess - their perfectly normative personal information can still be used to dox them or retaliate against them in some other way.

If you care about these people and/or any cause they may be fighting for, then you don't want them to be the only ones who demand privacy. Because:

1. They will effectively be holding a big "I have something to hide" signs, being the only ones that opt to protect their privacy.
2. Governments and companies will have an easy job giving them very small privacy protection, if at all, since there will be no pressure from the general public for privacy protection.

This will make it much easier to persecute minorities and to retaliate against activists, making society as a whole much worse for everyone.

Came across this one on Lemmy today, worth a read: https://technomagnus.vercel.app/posts/why-privacy-matters

"ok show me your browser history. Let me see your text messages too while you're at it."

Ask to put a webcam in their bathroom. Privacy is a right and has nothing to do with having something to hide. That's like saying freedom of speech is not needed because you don't have anything smart to say.

Do you go around showing your grandma photos of your asshole? Like, during church and everything? Because if yes I wanna hang with your granny she sounds cool but that's beside the point.

Yeah, I'm not doing anything wrong. Thing is, I'm not the one who would be deciding if the things I'm doing are wrong. The people who would be deciding are determined to find fault with everyone.

Whether you have something to hide depends on those in power. The people in power now setting the rules won’t be the same in several years.

"So you'll have no problem with me watching you poop then"

I mean take a look at what's happening in Russia (besides the war) - folks over there had nothing to hide until suddenly they had and quite a few people got a prison sentence for their posts, re-posts and likes made before the war. While Russia is quite an extreme case it's not the most extreme and you can sit on the "it won't happen to me/here" pills yet so thought those people.

That is like saying you have nothing to say, so don't need free speech rights

"It makes your internet faster you dum."

-Me when someone asks "what all that stuff does?"

most are only worried about their passwords, banking apps and not much else.

Gee whiz, that sounds like something to hide!

It is not even an argument, because it presumes that everything that is just or good should be open and transparent which is a false premise and undermines the current reality we live in.

Do you shit with the bathroom door open? You don't mind if I watch you while you shit then, do you?

It’s a service you’re providing to a company that they’re selling for profit but you’re not getting any compensation for. If you’re fine with that, that’s your right.

Who decides what's "nothing" and what's "something"? Who decides what's "hidden" and what's "open"?

If you aren't actively in charge of what "nothing" is, you should be engaged in privacy. It's that simple.

What I think about is that you may have nothing to hide but that doesn't mean your data can't be manipulated in the future by bad actors.

"So you don't mind if I put a live Webcam in your shower?"

Ask the person telling you that to describe in detail the last time they were intimate with someone and their security information for their bank account. Then when they are confused and upset repeat "got nothing to hide nothing to fear right?"

Do you have curtains in your house? Can I look at your income tax records and all purchases made on your visa and bank card?

If they've nothing to hide, then why are they so dodgy when things like lolicon are discussed? Their actions speak louder than their words ever could.

There is an age old practice from olden days of the internet. If you don't want your nudes out there, if you don't want your name out there, if you don't want anything of you out there - you don't put it out there. Because once it's out there, you won't ever know who'll see it much less, have it. I always assume, that as soon as I upload a picture of myself somewhere on social media, someone would've had to have right clicked and saved it already. For what purpose? Who knows, could be a matter of some sick personal collector of people they particularly are fascinated with to potential murderers who're only lacking my location but should they find me out in the open, they'll know what I look like and probably kill me. And anything in between.

But so many people on Facebook, complain about how it is that they make new accounts and suddenly are presented with familiar faces to re-add as friends. Whether or not it's a new e-mail to even a new location, Facebook knows you so well by now, that they'll pitch you all of whom you've had, even if you don't want them. That defeats the point of wanting a refreshing restart on your life when all you've got is reminders.

Black markets also exist that circulate your data. Why would one think that one day, they're seeing a bunch of transactions that they didn't authorize all of a sudden? Well, somewhere at somepoint, someone did seize your credit card or bank info and now is running hogwild on it.

They're not worried yet because it hasn't happened to them, but boy do the tables turn once people are affected by these experiences.

Ask if they close their window blinds at night

I would answer that like any normal person I have plenty of stuff to hide which I don't consider any legitimate concern of others, and rightfully so.

And that if that person has no dignity, they may bend over as much as they want, but they are also spitting in others' dish by making that bending over acceptable and common.

You got curtains? Interesting, why? Got something to hide?

The freedom we have now may not be here in the near future. Your political views, your opinions that you have voiced online could be used to oppress you then. Also, another simpler reason, I don't want corporations to know my personal life just like how I don't want my neighbor to know it either. It is called personal, not public.

Almost a throw away line, but in the original Red Dawn the invading commander issues orders to seize govt records on gun holders as a target.

"You must have a lot of faith in our government."

Like tomatoes too much? Straight to jail.

"I'll need to see your ID, Social, and bank info to prove it.", then start posting that on Facebook.

Ask them to poop in front of everyone at work.

Every, single, time, they have to go.

It's less that people have nothing to hide and more that you're not really sacrificing any privacy

There is no countering that argument. It points to an absolute failing of empathy. Rah, rah Godwin's law incoming. If you can't understand "First they came for..." and realize that it doesn't just stop or start at ethnicity and instead applies to literally everything and anything you care about them it's gonna take a serious remediative effort to correct that worldview.

Identity theft.

Say "don't change the subject."

tbf, that's just a reasonable position that a person can have. Your data is an asset, just like your bank account. If you wish to spend it for something in exchange, then do so.

My only concern would be if they were unaware of the potential risks. But most people are aware of the risks and choose to take them anyway. That is simply a choice they are free to make, ultimately.

Ask them if you can just come into their house at random and start pawing through their underwear drawer.

I mean, it's underwear. Almost everyone wears it, so what do they have to hide?

I have nothing to hide, just as surely as I am Hollywood superstar Margot Robbie, currently on strike from promoting my new movie [REDACTED] on Lemmy!

I was really interested coming into this thread, because although I am conscious about privacy I sometimes wonder why I bother.

Unfortunately none of the counterarguments in the comments are convincing at all.

Analogies with letting someone see you naked are stupid. We're not talking about naked photos, were talking about stuff like your age range and what newspaper you read. I don't care who knows that.

"Future authoritarian governments could use it against you" isn't worth worrying about. The government will have access to official records and can question you in person. Your ethnicity, religion, politics and sexuality are all easily found out whether you post them online or not. The fact that some advertising start up knows them will make no difference.

"If someone knows enough about you they can tailor Facebook ads to control your mind" is just sci fi conspiracy theory paranoia. Besides which they could run the same ads without targeting and I'd be just as mind controlled even if my data was a secret.

Edit: I really don't mind getting downvotes, but if anyone has time to make an actual counterargument that would be great

You should just fucking drop it. That's what you should do.

I don't care that ADs are targeted vs blasted. I don't care that meta sells advertising data. Meta provides a service I like and I have no fear that it will be used against me in any meaningful way that will reduce my quality of life.

Just stop. At this point you are quickly approaching Jehova witness level of cringe.