US to withdraw from NATO under Republican bill

Look how stupid your country is, to hand the death of NATO to Putin because you’re on his side.

Thanks for the war and death and heat, Americans.

Fuck you.

We're pretty pissed off at ourselves right now too. I'm sorry things got this far and wish I could offer more than fear and frustration...
The death of NATO is a good fucking thing. No more US military bases in the EU, no more forced expenditure of civil budget in weapons causing austerity, no more bombing of Libya and Yugoslavia, no more US influence in European politics. If you're European you should salivate at the thought of NATO ending.
- The end of NATO doesn't mean any of that. We have bases in non-NATO countries too, so obviously that isn't because of NATO. It does mean Russia has almost free reign to invade more countries. If Russia can cause issues without being part of an alliance like NATO, why do you think the US can't when it's not part of NATO?
Thanks for the war and death and heat, Americans.
Casting the first stone from paradise, eh?
- Americans have been burning paradise. Sit yout ass down and be quiet.

Just removing the US from another world stage

Soon we will be completely irrelevant

Which is the plan

Gonna be as isolated at North Korea by the end of this administration. As trusted too.
Except they have the largest nuclear arsenal and the world biggest navy. They can't be ignored.
- Only "solution" I see is civil war. The nukes are still a problem for the rest of the world though
- My brother-in-law is career Navy and he says they'd get mopped by the Chinese.
I wish they were just removing themselves from the world stage. What they're actually doing is shifting away from a model of direct co-operation with allied nations and strong economic ties with otherwise less friendly nations, to unilateral action wherever and whenever they feel like it.
Their foreign policy isn't moving towards isolationism, it's moving towards unchecked fascist domination.
- lol the currency is heading to worthless, what are they going to buy resources with? Trade also requires allies.
So fucking hyped for this

Honestly, the American far-right unknowingly dismantling US global hegemony piece by piece is pretty sick

they’re doing it very knowingly… they wrote an entire nearly 1000 page fucking document detailing exactly what they’re doing in excruciating detail.
the fascists == idiots trope needs to go bc that’s exactly what makes them dangerous. lots of these fuckers are quite intelligent and conniving. you should be weary.
- Oh yeah, they have a plan all right.
  Now, the plan isn't any good and everyone gets screwed, even them.
  But it is, technically speaking, a plan!
- Oh, we're weary all right.
- the fascists == idiots trope needs to go bc that’s exactly what makes them dangerous.
  That plan doesn't work. It assumes that the rest of the world just sits back and takes their crap lying down which isn't happening. They genuinely think they can just take over Greenland and nothing would happen. I don't know if they're intelligent or not, but they're definitely delusional.
- you should be weary.
  Oh don't worry, we're really freaking tired and weary of this nonsense.
  But we should also be wary of how sneaky these bastards are.
- One goal was to increase defense burden-sharing with allies. but withdraw from NATO wasn't a project goal.
- The followers of fascist movements are alsolute morons. The leaders are ruthless and capable opportunists.
Just when I warmed up to the idea that NATO was a necessary evil to counter Putin's worse evil.
- It is but losing the traitor in the assembly is not a bad thing. Now if Europe could jailbreak all that American tech they have in their military gear too, that would be nice.
- It also is a necessity to keep the USA from going Putin... Trump wouldn't stop wanting to be a King. As a King he'd work on becoming the Emperor. As Caesar Donald the step to becoming the god emperor isn't that big...
Between this and USAID I can't say I'm unhappy about it. Of course dismantling imperialism is a good thing, but I also don't understand. The republicans should be all about illegal invasions, bombing civilians, and installing puppet dictators, so they should love USAID and NATO, yet here we are. Is this just incompetence?

As directed by Vladamir Putin.

How would the military industrial complex not kill Trump if this were true?
- Jail, I imagine

What's next? Helping Russia in their wars? I hope it was fucking worth it to "own the libs."

Next is Canada and Greenland, then on to Europe where I will meet big daddy Putin in the middle.
- China could also attack Taiwan. That'll go much smoother when USA is alone and distracted
Thanks to nato, america been bombing and organizing coup in ton of countriea with impunity.

france was right all along

Yes, but what's the point? Nobody listens to France anyway, we are irrelevant. The only way to push our ideas is if somehow the EU embrace them.
And then we've got our own issues (doing nothing climate-related, lack of financing for science, nazi ideas getting popular, etc...).

They want out because it's stopping to be a market for the US military industries, as Europe increasingly wants to spend domestically. As such, it now has very little interest.

US: We want you to spend more on defence!
Europe: Ok, we will buy more, from our own companies!
US: That's not what I meant! I'm going home!

They wanted to leave during Trump’s first term because it helps Russia’s war with Europe
The increased spending is just meant to make the incumbents unpopular so the Russian backed candidates can win
- That's probably a factor as well.
Cause and effect are a little twisted here. Trump was already undermining NATO during is first term by saying European members should spend more. They didn't agree at the time, but the Ukraine War proved that Europe really did need a more domestic MIC, and now they are.
Trump wasn't saying it in the first place because he thought it would help NATO.
They want out because it’s stopping to be a market for the US military industries, as Europe increasingly wants to spend domestically. As such, it now has very little interest.
This is only happening because Drumpf is meddling with deliveries and contracts. It makes America an unreliable supplier and partner when a contract or agreement means nothing because the orange shiteweasel may change his mind tomorrow, and redirect the arms that you already paid for......
- They're also threatening to annex or outright invade long-term allies. You don't want to be in a war where the people you're fighting against are the only ones who can maintain and replace your weapons.

If the US leaves NATO, Europe would lose a lot of support.

If the US stays in NATO, they would refuse to support them anyway and could use their veto power to stop any potential action.

If they're not going to have the support of the US military either way, and the US staying in NATO could prevent the organization from taking any action at all, it may be in the best interest of Europe for the US to leave NATO so they can't cripple it from within.

NATO is a defensive alliance so the only thing a US veto would do is prevent Ukraine from joining NATO. But that wouldn't happen until the war is over, and it doesn't look like that's going to happen until Russia's economy collapses. At that point Russia won't be a threat for awhile so kick the US out, add Ukraine as a member since Ukraine would be a stronger ally than the US anyway.
You're confusing NATO with the UN.

This took longer than I thought it would. It seemed like a priority during trump’s 1st term, then it stalled.

Given some of Putin’s comments lately, he seems increasingly restless. I wonder if this is related to that?

He's preparing to attack the Baltics.
- I would say the rest of NATO should be able to hold against Russia for sure, especially in its current state.
  I would just be worried about short-term problems because of disrupted logistics due to the US withdrawing. Or maybe that other countries would follow the US in leaving.
  But in the end, that is just my guess.
- Based on news lately cracks on Russian economy start to show and their meat grinder in Ukraine crawls forward with massive casualties. At this rate they can't attack a garden shed.
  Putin himself can preparen and wish to conquer whatever he wants but as long as the little remains what's left of Soviet Union might is scattered around Ukraine, Russia can't really do anything. If Europe can't get their shit together and Russia eventually wins (after several years at this pace) in Ukraine it would still take years to build up any kind of military force against anyone and even then they'd need to fight against whole EU and whatever remains are left of NATO.

US: "NATO members need to up their defense spending!"

NATO: "Okay, we'll do it."

US: "Actually, We're leaving NATO." 🤡

asdf
- It's a common American view that the other countries weren't spending "enough", whereas from the perspective of everyone else on the planet it's America that's spending a hugely disproportionate amount of wealth on killing, and just expecting its allies to do the same.
  https://www.globalfirepower.com/defense-spending-budget.php

I keep getting this sinking feeling that this is all leading up to a precise and coordinated attack of evil.

Russia bombards the EU, the US attacks Greenland and Canada, while Israel finally bulldozes Gaza and Iran. China takes Taiwan and the south sea.

All at the same time so NATO is overwhelmed and can’t decisively defend it all without risking spreading too thin. No matter what happens, one of the bad guys gains ground.

I honestly have no idea if this is even possible, it’s based on a dream I had a few weeks ago.

Disturbing thought though.

Russia is losing against Ukraine, the fuck they gonna do against EU, unless they use nukes in which case who cares, it's game over
- yup Russia using nukes anywhere near russia like Ukraine would mean the radiation will spread to russia too. so yes, it is game over.
- Russia has an army that is capable of invading another country. The only country in NATO that have done that is the US. I don't think Russia invading the whole of the EU is a realistic possibility but grabbing a few ex Soviet countries off the border...
Israel might bulldoze Gaza and maybe a few Mashriq countries, but it would suffocate on Iran. That's a fucking big country.
- Graveyard of empires for a reason. They can try to OORAH!! MISSLES AWAY!!! Iran all they want, the resulting occupation will NEVER be a peaceful one, as there will ALWAYS be rebels in the hills and deserts.
- 17th biggest in the world. I was surprised when I learned that.
Israel, Iran, China, and Taiwan are all outside the scope of NATO.
Canada, Greenland, and most of the EU do fall under NATO protection though. It's a defensive alliance with well defined boundaries, member countries may have interests in other parts of the world, but since none of Israel, Iran, China, or Taiwan are NATO members it's not something NATO deals with. Unless one of those countries were to attack NATO of course.
Russia is in no shape to make war on Europe right now, they have their hands full with just Ukraine, and face economic collapse. Iran is in a similar situation. Trump has stopped his 51st state talk, but he's insane so you never know. China invading Taiwan? Trump is weak (he only talks tough) so you never know. But China is authoritarian and as we've seen of late authoritarian regimes don't seem to be doing well running military campaigns so it's possible they don't even have the capability of invading Taiwan.
- China might have a 2 year window coming up where it's even possible to invade Taiwan. Their military has modernized a lot, but they probably aren't quite to the point of being able to pull it off. At the same time, they are looking at a demographic cliff from the long term implications of the One Child policy.
  It's possible this window as already closed. That said, authoritarian regimes have started wars before that were terrible ideas.
I can see trump believing something so stupid as that, and putin might saber rattle about it, but the majority of the world, and china/india especially in this situation, probably would not go along with it. Europe still has functioning nuclear capabilities. Putin does not want nukes hitting his country, full stop. China does not want a nuclear situation kicking off with their neighbor to the north, and knows that the US under trump would likely turn on them despite a war ruining both countries. India no more wants china controlling the waters to their east than the countries immediately around those waters do, and would likely cause issues, which china also doesn't want. As we've seen in the modern times with ukraine and some of the middle east conflicts and the india/pakistan border, nuclear powers tiptoe around anything that resembles direct conflict. The recent dogfight over the border was a pretty good idea of how reserved even 'open' conflict is.
So putin is likely not going to do anything more than a symbolic grunt at his western border, and china will just slowly weather down taiwan if the u.s. is withdrawing its influence. The idea of reunification isn't THAT taboo in taiwan, and the candidates for it gather a decent chunk of votes. If the u.s. starts acting like a bitch around the world (oh, gee, just look at what's happening right now), the sentiment towards it and china could easily see a rapid shift.
- I agree with you, but my tinfoil hat is telling me to dig a shelter, preserve food and start making ammo. You know, for game hunting.
- Many valid points, but having nukes generally only prevents getting nuked, not attacks by other means. At least as long as either party still has something to lose.
ruzzia has had it's teeth pulled by Ukraine, so despite the barbarian posturing, they won't be starting another war for a few years.
The thing is the EU is mostly concerned about Europe, while the US wants to play world police. So if China would invade Taiwan and NATO is without the US, I'm not sure they are going to get involved, it would open the gate for Russia. If the US is still part of NATO I'm not sure what will happen as it's not an article 5 event. So the other NATO countries are not automatically involved even if the US is.
And add a dose of the US invading Canada and Greenland when they're no longer a part of NATO.
Wait, "attack of evil"? The US is literally funding and arming the genocide in Gaza, the US IS the greatest evil. You may argue for Russia being a close second (discounting Israel), but how is the US not absolutely the worst by any metric? How many millions did it murder in Vietnam, Iraq, Korea, and how many millions more were murdered under its approval in Southeast Asia(Suharto) or Latin America (Pinochet)?
- I’m not advocating for the US. The idea of arguably the most aggressive regimes in the world somehow coordinating the timing of their next big moves is just a bit terrifying to me.
NATO isn't gonna defend Taiwan or Iran. The US will defend Taiwan, Russia will defend Iran. NATO has no interest in either. NATO will defend Canada and Greenland as best they can.

This is literally the behavior of a traitor

Seriously, what happened USA? You were never the best, not even close, you were one of the worst, but st least you tried. Now you just kinda dropped pretence and went full asshole

And only 6 months into one administration. Honestly I've never seen politicians work so fast at anything
- 4 years followed by 4 years of biden where republicans blocked almost everything but he is now a perfect puppet to blame for everything and now the next 6 months. But Trump already started to refill positions back then.

That's fine, just pack your shit and close all military bases in nato countries as well.

Hey, you know how much money they spend on having this bases? Some regions depend on it.
On the other hand... I think Trump and his mad posse wouldn't risc being such bigmouths without their Bases in Turkey or Ramstein.
Also their level of megalomanic moronity makes me fear that when the USA leaves Nato it would start attacking the rest of the world. Canada and Mexico first. Then they would find "justifications" to raid through middle america and "bring idiocrazy" to south america. Reinstating slavery for everyone that ain't "a good godfearing white patriot"... Because... the white race is superiour and needs Lebensraum.... Oh god, I've heard that shit all over in history class when I grew up in Germany in the 1970ies...
Please, anyone stop them now!!!
- I remember german history class aswell, it might get ugly history seems to repeat itself a lot.
- We should wait for them to start a war with someone like Canada, and THEN ambush them. But to do that, Russia needs to be overrun.
Unfortunately, that's not how Imperial Presidencies work.

Does the bill include all military installation closures and those that are on European territories? For example Greenland. If MAGA wants out, then GTFO and I do not want hear any crying afterwards because that will give the Europeans every excuse not purchase US made weapons. I'm certain US MIC lobbyists will weasel their way in to tear apart the bill.

This is what I don't get about their plan to take over the US. It won't work because it will cost everyone money, the people they are ultimately beholden to will lose out because of actions they chose to take.
As soon as the consequences become apparent interest in project 2025 is going to drop off a cliff.
- As soon as the consequences become apparent interest in project 2025 is going to drop off a cliff.
  I want to believe

If they're going to withdraw then why are they strong arming all the other nations to spending 5% GDP on defense? If they're not in NATO, who gives a fuck what they want?

Probably because they want those 5% GDP spent for contracts with the 'murican military industrial complex.
- But that's definitely (hopefully?) not going to happen if they pull out of NATO.
- So, they wished the increased spending to the monkey paw and got exactly what they were wishing for: countries are cancelling orders of complex US equipment all over the world, and Europe is developing a military industry to compete with them.
It was a talking point that Trump had in his first term. He tends not to let go of bad ideas once they get into his head.
At the time, people didn't take it seriously. With the Ukraine War, Europe feels like it has to now. But it's going to be domestic production, not paying US MIC companies like Trump was thinking.
- The 5% is probably too much, but its realistically 3.5% the othet 1.5% can be spend on infrastructure (like make bridges strong enough so tanks can drive over them), on cyber defense and other things that are not weapons.
  Also it's about deterrence, when we spend enough Russia can't attack unless they match the spending, this is part why the Soviet Union collapsed.
I dont know. maybe to help them get ready or look like he's doing so?
That's the elephant in the room.
For those who don't know, Trump is threatening tariffs on Spain for not complying.
To me it means that the threat of leaving Nato is a ruse to facilitate armament for a big war against China. Fewer people would support that.
If you think Drumpf may be a Pootin asset, then it makes perfect sense. Spending more GDP on defense usually makes the incumbent party less popular, which may create opportunity for russia leaning candidates. Obviously, this would weaken NATO. NATO countries go along with Drumpf because they really still hold some hope that USA won't leave the fold. They are still in the Denial stage of mourning. Anyway, events in Ukraine have shown that more GDP spending on military is pretty much essential for any country within range of ruzzia.

I'm not saying Donald is a russian asset... But what more could daddy vladdy wish for?

We really need to examine this need people have to blame Russia for everything. Do you blame Russia when your dryer loses a sock too? It's fascinating to me.
- I might if Russia had a vested interest in taking my socks, and the dryer had a history of justifying Russia's sock stealing.
- Are we, including or excluding that it’s all, but been confirmed that he is a Russian asset ?whether it’s willing or unwilling remains to be seen.

Incredible to observe the rapid (self)destruction of US. I'm just waiting for a couple of states to declare independence. Within a 5-10 years USA will be history like the Sovjet Union; it will break down into smaller countries.

all of which is advantageous for putin.
Not without a lot of bloodshed, unfortunately.

Mike Lee is obviously a fucking traitor lol Americans stand up for your country and shoot the motherfucker

Irritatingly unlikely, sadly.
Both parties have spent considerable time batting around the 2nd Amendment as a toy in their game. A polarizing empty-promise point with emotional strings attached, so now all the blowhard bullies sexually fetishize weaponry, and many of the types who would disagree with authoritarians are paralyzingly afraid and ignorant of anything "military looking" that makes loud noises.
"Because only cops and troops should have guns!" said the enlightened neoliberals, as they gladly handed over their responsibilities of self-protection and firearms education to the might-makes-right crowd.
"Muh freedom! An' 1776 or somethin'! An' own the libs, don't tread on me!" says the gun "collecting", MAGA-hat wearing, massive-smoking-diesel-truck-in-the-suburbs driving, angry and scared working man, who carries a copy of the Declaration of Independence (he hasn't actually read, or if so, cherry-picks the parts he likes) and is completely ignorant on the Bill of Rights, who loudly decries and slanders "The Government(TM)" ...but conveniently simps for his abusive bossman and "backs the blue" when they mercilessly beat a bunch of people waving signs and assault reporters. Who waves a Bible (also unread) around yet shows contempt and hatred for his neighbor. Who thinks a bunch of armed insurrectionists storming the Capital because they didn't like poll results aren't traitors.
Lol.
Lmao.
God help us.
Many of the people who are opposed to this clown show have been successfully declawed and defanged if their legal processes have fallen apart, which we're watching happen in real time. They're also scabs who just want their creature comforts and will keep their heads down hoping "somebody else will take care of it."

I had so many brain dead idiots attack me over at Reddit, for claiming America would withdraw from NATO if trump won. They weren’t just Americans, but also Europeans.

He did hint at it during his first term. So it wasn't an unprecedented prediction. Especially when it has become obvious that the previous guard rails have come off.
Russians too
- Russians are technically europeans too.
I got banned from one of the NCD communites (not world, different instance) here for insinuating the US doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO lol
We'll see if this gets anywhere. Right now it's just one idiot pushing this.

Honestly, NATO might be better off without them

Why do you think that? How would losing half the military assets and technology would benefit NATO?
- Half the military and technology assets that won't ever actually be used to help NATO under Trump.
  He'll veto every action that goes against Russia... Which is what NATO was originally formed to do...
- The US is great at spending money in the military, but it absolutely sucks at actual war.
  Look how they wasted trillions in Afghanistan to surrender to the Taliban.
  the US military exists solely to funnel tax payer money to military shareholders.
Agreed. Drumpf is Pootins "man"*on the inside. Look to him to delay and prevaricate any NATO decision, and generally try to sabotage them
Drumph is NOT a man. He's a cowardly little orange shit weasel.
- a man child
with the constant threat of trump working with PUTIN, who wants nato in disarray, its a good thing for the EU to divest from the usa.

Another Russian shill?

Well, a Republican, so yes.

Oh boy this Putin guy sounds powerful! He must have 64 bit washing machine CPUs!
Never take responsibility for the state of your society and country.

He's just stirring shit to get his name out there isn't he?

Utahns generally don't like to draw attention to themselves as firebrands (e.g. Mitt Romney, Orrin Hatch), so methinks the Senator is planning to get into the 2028 presidential primary.

Of course NATO is not a trusted organization to an administration consisting exclusively of Russian agents.

Seriously, are we sure these assholes even speak English and have English names or is there some cover-up going on?

Isn't this the same psycho whose reaction to Minnesota politicians being assassinated was conspiracy theories?

Yes it is

wow, even after NATO members helped US.

Yep, the USA likes to complain about Europe being security freeloaders, but the only member to ever invoke Article 5 was the USA.
- Outside of NATO, even Ukraine soldiers helped US. Apparently, over 5000 Ukraine soldiers served in Iraq, third largest contingent after US, UK.

From a Turkish perspective, it's fucking ridiculous for Trump to first convince us to increase the defense budget, then withdraw from the alliance completely. The fuck is his goal?

"Keep 'em guessing". You have to understand Trump is not a statesman. It's that simple. He views everything as a one-to-one personal power dynamic in the context of some silly real estate deal about which restaurant supplier to choose for the crispy tortilla shells.
I don't think he understands the ramifications beyond a contract he won't respect or some clever insult he can hurl.
- He's a trust-fund nitwit cosplaying as an entrepreneur, who has been parachuted into the Presidency.
He doesn't want you to fix your part of the deal. He wants a reason to complain about the deal.
Spending more on defense is the republican thing it matters to them more than anything else so it does not matter at all if we even need it.

Mike Lee floats a lot of turds, even in excess of what the standard put out. He's been agitating against NATO membership practically since his first day in the Senate, along with his close friend Rand Paul.
This bill won't even make it out of committee, unless Lee can get a bug in Trump's ear over it.
Why do you believe Rutte pushed through the 5% military spending target? It is needed to replace the US in Europe and be a working deterrent to both Russia and the US.
It also is a bad move to leave NATO, as this makes the EU the logical center to coordinate the defense of democracies.

Well, in a democracy it's important that people who want this can try to make it happen via official procedure, which this is.

That said, the people who want this are assholes and probably in bed with Russia.

That is the problem with democracies - they have no active protection of their own because it would be undemocratic on principle.
- They do have active protection; education. Under attack since the dawn of time.

Oh trump's definitely not the "daddy" in this relationship.
Not really. European NATO countries are currently strong enough to repel a Russian attack if we so wish. Taking into account how strong the Russia is at the moment. It will be stronger in the future, but we are easily able to increase our strength more than the Russia can.
And if USA withdraws from NATO, then the rest of EU, not only Finland, Baltics, Sweden, and Poland will be forced to take defence seriously. This will make NATO more like it was supposed to be, and it will no longer be used for offensive wars.
But... USA withdrawing from NATO would of course have negative sides:
a war with the Russia would not end in two days with a decisive victory for us as it would with USA in, but would drag on for weeks at least, likely years. And thousands or tens of thousands would die.
USA's allies in Asia would not dare to trust USA anymore and would turn towards China for coöperation, regardless of China's imperialism. This would make China stronger, which would be bad for Europe.
But still: The EU is the biggest economy on this planet. We are absolutely able to win a war against a country with an economy only as big as one of our 27 member states. We just need to bother to do so. Which means we'll need to change our mindset. Heh.
- Right now nearly all aid to Ukraine comes from Europe and Russia is not able to win that war. At least not easily. That is with Russia in a war economy, whereas Europe half asses deliveries for the most part and obviously there are over a million professional European soldiers with some really good kit around as well.
- I'm fairly sure Ukraine is almost stronger than EU combined right now. We would NOT speedrun Russia, and Russia is a death cult that would have hundreds if not millions of casualties on their side, even if we did (saying this as a Serbian, and we are normally very proud of our combat abilities for some reason).
Russia could not even prevent Assad from falling to some militia with some training from Turkey, while Iran was also helping. What do you believe is going to happen, if they would try to fight another professional military? They are not even winning in Ukraine, which gets some support from Europe, while Russia has a full on war economy.

What's that flag?
- SEATO apparently. Did not know that existed
  Southeast Asia Treaty Organization

So we dont buy US military kit. It's got kill switches and hard to keep running without their support. It's increasing looking like they aren't aligned with the free world.

I recommend buying all of Hobby Kings >80 amp ESCs, all their 4S batteries, and lots of high KV outrunner BLDCs. Then buy all the carbon fiber sheets from aliexpress and build drones baby.

Great!! Fuck right off USA!!! Without you idiotic dipshits in NATO the rest of the aligned countries don’t have to listen to your moronic whining to spend $ on US defense weaponry/planes etc. You won’t be missed and piss off. From Canada’s POV we’re really looking forward to spending billions on Saab Gripens - so we can protect ourselves from you.

watch how they whine, when european decides to close and expel all the bases and military from thier borders, Asian might not do it though because of CHINA, which is a different beast, and issue.
hello Russian shill.
- Are you high? The US president is literally a Putin fluffer. But please, go on.
  🙄🙄🙄
- There are plenty of ruzzian shills and Pootin taint attachees, but the comment you responded to, is an extremely fair one, and probably represents the majority opinion. Drumpf is a friend to no one in NATO, and is possibly even an enemy.

Nobody cares what the State Duma has to say

USA showing again how they are traitors and cowards.

So is it their goal to turn the US into an irrelevant backwater or what?

So far they've introduced bills that diminish their own military force, decimated global trading relationships, now they're trying to back out of the final commitments they have left. By the time 2030 rolls around no one will want to be president because they'll have no power.

Nah they want to attack whoever they feel like without having to go through a meeting.
- "This is an invasion that could have been an email!"
Yes. The most charitable interpretation is that people have forgotten the lessons of the 1900s and think that a replay of Herbert Hoover is a good idea.
Last time it took a few decades and destroying countless lives to fix. Hopefully the cost is lower this time.
The worship of limitless work and the military, a toxic obsession with hyper-individualism and isolation, with a paper-thin facade of morals and self-proclaimation of greatness, while everyone is broke, without opportunities, hooked on drugs, and stuck with crumbling infrastructure in vast stretches of remote nothing-land, while getting used and abused by multinational corporations and barons?
Sounds like they're just pushing the mentality of the southern states to a national level.

Gotta make daddy putin happy

Hope, this doesn't go anywhere. NATO is frail as it is.

I don't know if a US less NATO would be that frail, it would absolutely shrink the alliance, but that can make it more flexible, being able to re form to Europe's new needs, rather than as an extension of the US military
- What's more, we wouldn't be dragged into the US' imperialist shit anymore. Well, hopefully.
- Sure, that could be a consequence in the long run, but it would be pretty bad for our immediate situation.

The press I saw from nato meet where really disturbing as in they where blatantly sucking up on him.. so maybe there was something known already. Also the Iran stunt is incredible, what is happening?

Meanwhile, Putin and Russia is cheering this on. The parties they are going to throw are going to be absolutely epic. You’ve heard the party of the decade, you’ve heard of the party of the century, get ready for the party of the millennium.

Step 1: Get help from NATO in the middle the east. Step 2: Once NATO needs your help withdraw. Step 3: PROFIT.

Step 3: Become irrevelant, getting replaced by otherwise mediocre countries. That's one way to bring world peace, I guess.

Can the US get invaded yet? Someone needs to bring us some freedom...

Australia really needs to close Pine Gap as well.

Australian democracy vs the CIA round 2
- Hopefully we can trust the GG this time!

Mike Lee is a notoriously despicable person even by GOP standards and the bill doesn't have any legs. Like, just a week ago he said terrible things about the Minnasotan politicians who were shot dead in their homes, and he's also the one who was pushing to sell off public lands (which he was bullied out of; also seems to be in the pocket of the Mormon cult).

The US stance on NATO is complicated under the current US regime but I doubt it'll be by this assholes bill.

Try the US stance on China, ever heard of "strategic ambiguity"?
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2023/march/strategic-ambiguity-taiwan-has-run-its-course
It basically means as long as the US interests align with getting cheap labor and items from China, it's the best, until it isn't.
What a beacon of the international rules-based-order. No wonder the world looks up to ~~American Values~~ strategic bombers...

Lol, they are really regarded, US paying more is by design right from the start.

Yes, please. I'm sick of my country working with these degenerates yankees

Hol up. Didn't NATO guy wank all over daddy's boobs already?

I thought that was more of a language barrier thing tbh, poor guy probably would have used father or dad if he knew the connatations.
- Partly, yes. But also partly because world leaders have realised that if you don't want the US to fuck you up the ass you need to say nice things to Trump, preferably combined with gifts.

For the other nations in nato it would be for the best (imo obviously). Republican usa is not a reliable ally and the other nato nations have not all come to terms with that new reality yet. If the usa quits nato, then it instantly removes all doubt and the remaining nations of NATO can immediately start work on improving the alliance, instead of being stuck in limbo for a few more years while they're hoping that the usa will somehow magically unfuck itself.

We already know all of that and work is already being done to improve the alliance among non-US NATO members. The US is already considered non-reliable and the only benefit of the US being a member is that it puts some doubt in the minds of adversaries long enough to build up the militaries of the non-US members.

Mike Lee? The guy who proposed a federal porn ban?

It seems highly unlikely for this to pass. There are so many bills being proposed but often it's not actually relevant since it's going nowhere.

Agreed. Sensationalist newsweek article and title.

As predicted years ago.

Trump is Putin's ally, not NATO's.

This was forseen by some YEARS ago..

As I've said before, they're committed to destroying all the "woke" countries in a pincer between Putin & Trump,

& that's why Greenland is required, so the US can do to Canada what Russia's been doing to Ukraine, & once Canada's destroyed, then the hated-by-them-both EU can be destroyed.

It's a strategy, & it will succeed unless the TrueNATO countries SMARTEN UP SHARPLY, QUICKLY, which looks to not be going to happen..

Whatever.

There are other worlds in endless-stream-of-universes: our continuums/souls will just do it again, on another world, after obliterating this "Garden of Eden" world, right?

whatever.

Watching humankind "prevent" snuffing-of-humankind is like watching a junkie's life be obliterated by whatever junk they're addicted-to.

Inevitable, depressing, pointless..

Oh, sure, it's possible that the addict in question might somehow change & fight-for-their-life against their unconscious-mind's obliteration-addiction, but is it likely?

not.

The thinly veiled US exceptionalism that America is funding it. And their standard attack against other nations that they are welfare states taking advantage of USA.

Fucking assholes, if people are taking advantage of us. Then be proud we are so strong and rich that they even can.

I hope so. The united snakes should not have any influence for all the countries they bombed and couped for decades

Of course they do. Here's hoping they all die in a fire

I like this! It's a good thing for the EU to decouple from the US. The EU's military budget is definitely good enough, just very badly managed. This will push the EU to get its shit together and achieve proper autonomy. Only then it'll be able to enter international agreements on equal footing with other superpowers and not have it be a serfdom relationship in exchange for protection

Yeah and what the fuck we gonna do without Raytheon/LockMart/Boeing weaponry etc? Munition?
- That's the point, figure out a way to stop relying on them. It'd have been better if it weren't necessary to have a wake-up call like this, but if that's what it takes to achieve that result, I'm okay with it
Europe is not decoupling.
US defence firms chase European military spending wave
This is disingenuous at best, Russian bot most likely
- I'm just some guy that doesn't like Europe being reliant on the US and I am also against Russia

If we attack the USA, can I get some land in North Carolina?

... like, as a punishment, and you volunteer?
(jk, the forests are nice)
Saw what bro?
- Yeah, I saw some nice places around Raleigh near RTP, big Walmart there too. Duke sucks, BTW.

Good, the neoliberal world order is destroying itself

Good....GOOD. Immigrants in EU welcome! 😁

Having NATO fall apart is the worst thing in the world for democracy, the only person who is cheering this on is Putin and the people who Putin.

Won’t go anywhere. But it’s a nice try.

All of Europe will be Russia.

The Russia that can't take Ukraine? Keep dreaming.

This bill is going nowhere, and Trump just said at the summit that he would honor article 5.
I know Trump often changes his mind, but the summit showed that Trump has definitely changed course for the better regarding NATO.

Bullshit. This isn't the game you play with the orange turd.
Not sure how much I trust Trump, but yeah Mike Lee (who introduced the bill) is someone who just likes introducing bills. The fact no one else joined him means this article and conversation is about all he could expect to actually happen.

Don't threaten me with a good time time

Yeah, no, that's not going to be a good time for anyone
- Except everyone who isn't in NATO or near an American military base lmao

I’m in no way supporting Russia or Republicans when I say this but NATO since its inception has been used for Western imperialist goals and establishing US global hegemony, so in no way do I support its existence anymore

You are in every way supporting both Russia and the Republicans saying that. If It wasn't for nato, the Baltic states and maybe even some central European countries wouldn't exist by now.
- Sorry I’m not supporting an imperialist military organization that bombs civilians and has had nazi leadership
  Edit: Crazy this opinion is downvoted