9mo ago

Poorly socialized rule

229 comments

This is such an insightful way to articulate the issue. The conversation mostly revolves around individuals ("men are bad"). This is one of the few times that men are talked about in a way that acknowledges the system at play, that they are a product of an environment and society that has shaped them a certain way.
I've lost the podcast source that talked about "there is no good way to be a man currently". Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren't role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There's no positive road map, only a list of "don'ts" and stereotypes to avoid.
- The best example of good manliness in media I can think of is Bandit from Bluey.
  The options are pretty slim if a cartoon dog from a children’s show is humanity’s best example of being a good man.
  
  Tim Walz seems to do it right.
  
  Idk, I think Aragorn is a great example. As is Samwise.
  
  Uncle Iroh is another one
- We, as a society, are still trapped within the "feminist revolution", there's fighting going on and no new normal emerged.
  Both sides are ripped apart by two often contradicting sets of expectations, the traditional role and the progressive role.
  What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it's a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women's rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.
  And that also reflects on women, to put it extremely bluntly, he's expected to pay for dinner, but she still wants equal pay. It will take decades to sort all of that out.
  
  It sucks. As a dude, I feel it's almost impossible to balance being confident and approaching women you don't know and also not being a creep or bothering them. I'm not the best but not the worst when it comes to looks, I have many friends of different genders (shoutout to my enby fellows who have to deal with this mess and also discrimination) and I'm confident in most things I do aside from dating. It's gotten to the point I just won't ask women out due to anxiety over coming across as a creep or bothering them, and instead endure loneliness. Which is not great, but it is what it is.
  
  What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.
  the important distinction here is that these privileges were the reason that men did what they did. Without them now men don't really have an overall driving force through life. Without the expectation of "being a strong man" they literally have nothing to live for in society.
  
  I like it
- Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren’t role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There’s no positive road map, only a list of “don’ts” and stereotypes to avoid.
  Bluey.
  
  This is hilarious because Bluey is a girl
  
  bluey is great, but it's only one example in a sea of no ships. It's also aussie, so it's not even super culturally relevant to most of the west, it's also focused at really young children.
  Beyond young children you have shows like, full house, which is literally fucking ancient.
- At least that means the routes men take will be more unique
  
  Or they'll all fall down the Andrew "Sex Trafficker" Tate pipeline instead.
- there aren’t role models
  What would you expect from a "role model"? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that's not publicized, so it's hard to show off good behaviour.
  Robin Williams was always a standup guy, Keanu Reeves seems like a nice guy, Ryan Reynolds seems to be a standup guy (but he has a hard monetary incentive to keep this image), the guys from Cinema Therapy seem to be decent. Do these people count as role models?
  
  What would you expect from a “role model”? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that’s not publicized, so it’s hard to show off good behavior.
  people that are the stereotypical mr rogers of the real world. We really do just need more people that are such good people that just they instill goodness in others on a fundamental level. That and people willing to spend time educating others.
  if you aren't a stereo-typically perfect individual, that's fine, you almost certainly have something useful that you can teach someone young that's around you.
- therapy is a good place to start. men need to want to improve themselves. many don't. I find this issue to be more prevalent among older generations who are extremely resistant to therapy.

I'm not gonna be the "not all men" guy because this person does have a point,
But I will say, if all you look for is negatives, that's all you're gonna find.
- Not being desirable can also solely be a lack of positives.
  
  Ah yes, you look at the entirety of the male population, say "there's no positives", and still think you have a point 😂😂😂.
  It's like you can't even wrap your own head around the sheer amount of misandry oozing from your mouth.

For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I'm not. Now that I've matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed. I think if "alpha males" stopped taking out their anger on women and instead on the capitalist class we would start seeing some true progress.
- same but then I realized I am a woman
  
  Congratulations on your transition 🙏
  
  Same :3
  
  never hated women but yes XD
- For several years I hated women because subconsciously I was angry that they are allowed to express their femininity and I'm not.
  Wouldn't the equivalent rather be women being allowed to express masculine traits? Which to be fair is well-accepted nowadays.
  However, I don't give a shit if people see some of my traits as feminine. I was born male and 100% identify as male. If others see my traits as feminine, it doesn't change my identity because I define it. Think I shouldn't wear long hair? Who asked for your opinion? And why should be awesome traits like empathy or openness be strictly female and not human?
  
  Some masculine traits in women are accepted to some extent. But, look at the backlash against that Algerian boxer.
  For someone who really cares about fitting in with society, the pressure to conform can be pretty brutal. There's probably more freedom to be who you want to be now than ever before. In the past not only gender roles, but every role in society was extremely rigid. People didn't even have the freedom to decide whether or not to wear a hat outside. The expectation was that everyone wore a hat, and if you didn't you were a real oddball.
  I strongly suspect that some of the people who think they're trans are just people who have interests/passions/attitudes/personalities that don't conform to their stereotypical gender roles.
  
  I want to see you again after 5 years. /lh
- they are allowed to express their femininity and I'm not.
  A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
  A man expressing femininity? “That’s disgustingly pathetic!”
  Now that I've matured I hate the system that keeps me oppressed
  Except… who reinforces those oppressive rules?
  It ain’t men, that’s for sure. We just passively submit and nod our heads yes to whatever women say, least we are painted with the same brush by association, and be labelled misogynistic or “not a man” for disagreeing.
  
  A man expressing masculinity? “That’s violently toxic!”
  Okay, I have to imagine you're here in bad faith because anyone who understands toxic masculinity would not phrase it this way.
  
  I was referring to the capitalist class that keeps people divided while they enrich themselves. Also it was primarily men who stopped me from expressing any sort of femininity while women passively agreed.

[rant (with memes!)]
This is a particularly sore spot for me. I was an incel in the 1980s, long before the term incel was coined, and I was odd and a misfit, and fit nicely in this pile...

\ alleged link << I'm still new to Lemmy-linking.
... and my inability to manage my own teenage libido figured into my suicidality then. Society's failure to do better after another thirty-five years figures into my suicidality now.
To be fair, I suffer from major depression, largely tied into a childhood of neglect (I was a stereotypical latchkey kid) but then since the eighties, US society has required all adults to work full time, and everyone's parents were exhausted and didn't have much time or inclination to parent... and it's only getting progressively worse. So I'm thinking this is intergenerational dysfunction and mental illness. Madness takes its toll.

One of the things that kept me going in my twenties was the hope things would get better for future generations, but instead the US opted for abstinence-only sex ed, which is still (in 2024) mandated in twenty six states, and pushes some really hard Christian stereotypes, e.g. that sex is transactional, men are obligate providers and women have no value other than their virginity and capacity to bear kids (in case you want to know what J. D. Vance' rhetoric is all about.)
In contrast, only three states (the west coast) mandate comprehensive sex ed, which talks about contraception in a positive way, but it doesn't (officially) talk about consent, boundaries, the patriarchy, the slut-shaming epidemic and so on. If you're a teen, an incel, or know one, or otherwise want some serious sex and relating to other humans in a functional way info, check out Planned Parenthood, who has materials (and I believe they're free). Despite what Jon Kyl said -- #NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatement -- Planned Parenthood spends more on their educational materials than they do on abortions, so go get some!
For me, I got lucky. At twenty five, I figured I might be able to recover my way into society, and joined a random AA meeting which had pamphlets about local meetings for other recovery and 12-step meetings. I found my way to CoDependents Anonymous and through a coincidence segued my way into the kink community. In Choke Chuck Palahniuk gets into a slightly different path which is getting into the Sex and Love Addicts community, where peers are slightly too eager to fall off the wagon with each other. This is as dysfunctional as hate-fucking, but hey, we are already truly gone fishing crazy in a society that is also dysfunctional.
Even in the early 1990s, when we were still just trading copypasta on Usenet and Wikipedia was still a WiP, it was clear then it was a bad idea to leave all our young men sexually frustrated, pretend like it's not a problem and then try to teach them integral calculus. It wasn't the era of suicide terrorists (lonely, angry young men in the Middle East) and it wasn't yet the age of rampage shooters (lonely, angry young men in the US). But we did have a run of spree killers, and Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, and Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. Lonely and sexually frustrated to the last.
To be fair, the US Armed Forces really likes lonely, angry sexually frustrated young men. This is their primary tap for recruits, and until recently, we've been fighting the International War on Terror.
And an awful lot of them, especially those who never figure out how to relate to ~~women~~ anyone trickle their way into the many alt-right factions, not just incels but the alpha male community, the seduction community, gamergaters, MGTOW, the manosphere, militias, 4Chan/b and so on. Piles and piles of guys (and some gals) who are losers, and they know it. In a shit world that dealt them a shit hand, and do a sine-wave dance between wanting to fade out and wanting to watch the world burn. I know the steps to this jig.
Connected ones go into law enforcement.

Essentially, US culture has created this giant pool of Immorten Joe's war boys, all looking to be witnessed all shiny and chrome into Valhalla. And they are all voting for Trump in 2024 and are eager to join Röhm's Sturmabteilung as soon as a recruiter tells them to stand back and stand by.
I don't know what the solution is, and I've put a lot of thought into it. The US hates its teens. It seems to be a fixed action pattern (an instinct) to lock our adolescent women up and to evict our adolescent men, once they respectively start showing signs of puberty. I wonder if it's related to those gorilla species that evict their adolescent females during their first estrus, but then welcome strange females.
Regardless, it's much the way our administrators side with bullies over their victims when they can (an affect of dominance hierarchy, the thing that drives us to worship athletes and sports stars). In my old age, I wonder if we're just driven to rationalize obeying instincts rather than recognizing that an advance society sometimes requires non-intuitive solutions.
We need to find a way to actually respect our teens while they're still in that threshold between cute kid and responsible adult. Just as we need to find a way to actually respect folks that are not simultaneously white, Christian, male and rich enough to have a stock portfolio. If we don't, it'll kill us.
In the meantime, Millennials are having few kids, and Zoomers, fewer still. After the anti-abortion thing, they're just not even bothering to date, and feel undriven to do so since there's little to no hope for the future.

During the German Reich, when the population rate imploded, they just rounded up pretty young German women who fit the master race mold and required them to serve in the Leibensborn program, as breeding slaves for the Schutzstaffel what inspired Margaret Atwood's handmaid program in A Handmaid's Tale. And considering J. D. Vance's obsession about childless women whether teachers or cat-ladies, this sounds like a thing he'd be happy to spearhead once the Project 2025 agenda sends the US into one-party autocracy.
I suspect there is some undiscovered sociological magic we might be able to use to change the way we interact with power hierarchy and in the meantime give our teens more guidance and less constraint. But if we don't, it's a problem that will resolve itself within the next century (more or less). In the meantime, when see Eleanor Rigby or Father McKensie lost and forgotten in their solitude, a check in and a friendly pint (or ice cream cone) might be in order.
[/rant]
- I can't, so I asked Gee Pee Tea to. Howd it do?
  Society's failure to support teens, especially those struggling with loneliness and sexual frustration, has only made things worse over the decades. Abstinence-only sex ed and a culture that neglects young people have contributed to this mess, creating a cycle where exhausted parents can’t provide the guidance teens desperately need.
  Lonely, angry young men are often funneled into harmful ideologies or destructive paths. The future looks bleak, with fewer people having kids and growing fears that political movements could exploit this desperation. It’s crucial to find better ways to respect and guide youth before things spiral even further.
  
  It's pressure on the workforce to over exert that has cost us parents. It's right-wing ideology that gives us AO education programs, and allow them to focus on teaching that ideology, rather than informing about sex, love and intimacy.
  I'm not a psychologist or sociologist, so I am guessing (hypothesizing) that authorities over pubescent adolescents responding to incidents of sexual expression (including flirting, courting, sexting, not just making out ^† ) has more to do with instincts than what would best serve the teens or the community. But this is consistent with dominance hierarchy and the behavior of other social primates.
  ~~Ass~~ As I said, I don't have a societal solution, but we can act locally by acknowledging that everyone, from our disregarded teens to untrained adults are all commonly products of a dysfunctional system that raised dysfunctional kids who are now dysfunctional adults. So yes, cut everyone some slack, including yourself.
  † or K-to-9 kids for that matter, who are prone to interest and experimentation, which parents and guardians respond to by freaking out and punishing those kids who are involved.
  
  Quite an oversimplification, but it hit some of the high points. It’s a good little opinion piece, and worth the time, I think.
- Oh man, good rant! My comprehension lost track about 1/3 of the way down just past the Choke reference, but I identified with a lot of it and I frequently think of the mentally ill koala comic in my daily life.
  The sad truth I've found though is that the mentally ill koala comics context is what is used to automatically dismiss that final Twitter reference. -and that's why mental illness has a stigma. People use it as an excuse to invalidate other people.

Any individual who make blanket comments about whole sections of society will loose my respect pretty quickly.
Substitute women, blacks, Asians, Latinos, the Dutch, and just about every other subsection for the word “male” in that statement and this thread would be having a completely different conversation.
- Where did they say no good men exist?
  
  It was implied (if not outright said, which I believe they did but whatever it's a possibly made-up sister from a random person on the internet.)
- okay but we're not talking about another subsection... we're talking about men. you can insert whatever qualifier in front that makes you feel better about it, but you wouldn't be making this comment if they were talking about another group. this is a problem among young men. we need to be able to talk about it if we want anything to change.
  obviously if you insert a marginalized group in place of a dominant one it will be different. that is how that works, yes. this type of comment only derails from genuine concerns.
  
  The irony being that those are their genuine concerns.
  
  There's nothing genuine about your rotten misandry. Take it, and yourself, out of here.

As a man, who knows many "men", I have to say, a lot aren't being raised.... At all.
- I was like that, dad left when I was 11 and mom was majorly depressed. Watched a shit ton of YouTube and thankfully found myself on the good side. Around this time there was the war between Logan Paul and the rest of the internet and I watched a lot of commentators call his shit out.
  Probably not the best for me, but it did teach the basic morals of "don't be an asshole". Most other kids watched Logan/Jake Paul and were insufferable fucks.
  
  To summarize my youth: the only stuff I learned, outside of school, was taught to me by my brothers, in the form of bullying.
  I was the youngest.
  What I'm most annoyed by is that my dad, a teacher, with a bachelor's in bookkeeping, taught me exactly nothing about money.
  They fed me, and I got older, but I raised myself. I learned how to handle my own finances, and live on my own, because they certainly didn't help me in that regard, and when I found myself basically on my own at 16, after my parents divorced and I was essentially abandoned, I had to sort my shit out damn fast. It was sink or swim.
  Obviously there's a lot more to it than that, but I'll tell you this: as a teenager, I had no goddamned idea how to shop for groceries, or cook for myself.
  I try not to bitch about it too much because that was more than 20 years ago now. I don't want to compare my challenges to anyone else.
  My entire point is that, I wasn't taught anything. I figured it out without any help. The difference between a man, and a child who got older, is whether you taught yourself how to be self sufficient, when everyone else decided that you were old enough to know everything you needed to know, when nobody has actually explained anything to you about how to survive, then pushed you out the door.... If you experienced that, and you figured it out. Welcome to adulthood, congrats. If you were never in a situation where if you missed a couple of shifts at work, you'd have to sleep under a bridge, then, IDK. Sounds a bit pampered to me.
- I relate, kind of.
- They feed you and expect you to grow but they didn't have a plan on how to mautre just a list of don'ts you have to follow.
  
  Do as I say!
  Don't talk back!
- It's funny that you both place quotation marks around men, showing you don't believe they are, and yet pretend that you think the fault is in how they're being raised.
  It's like the dichotomy escapes you. Are they real men raised poorly? Or are they fake men and therefore they're not the subject of this discussion at all?
  I don't expect you to have any reasonable response though because clearly the misandrist brain rot hit you pretty hard. My condolences. Maybe you should isolate though.
  
  What even is this response?
  I was raised. I raised myself.
  I see a lot of boys who are so sheltered from the world that they can't even make hot pockets or do their laundry without someone helping them.
  I wanted to be raised by my parents and I was forced to raise myself. I don't say this to garner any sympathy, because I know I won't get any. I'm not going to throw myself a pity party because I was left to figure it out.
  The only point I'm making, if any at all, is that: school doesn't prepare you for life. It certainly didn't prepare me for life... And parents should be teaching their kids how to deal with stuff, and think about their choices so they can make good ones without needing to be told what to do.
  I had to figure that out on my own. It's 100% possible to have a very easy upbringing and be raised right.
  I don't think I need to tell anyone that nobody gives a fuck about how you feel or how much you're struggling, if you have a dick between your legs, and that demonstrates the problem in society. Boys will "figure it out".
  Most of them don't, more than a few, never will.
  What's all this shit about being raised? Who raised you?

As a bisexual guy, this is exactly why I mostly dated women.
- Hey! Bi cis male here, the few men I seem to go on dates with always seem to have some hangup. I'm not gay enough, I'm married to a women, hates vegans, hates trans people. It's really exhausting to the point that first dates feel like I'm interviewing them.
  
  As a straight man I could say similar things about most of the women I've dated. It's not a men problem or a women problem, it's just how dating is. Nobody's perfect and it's hard to find someone that fits with you.
  
  you mean to tell me that most people don't believe the majority of the things you do? That's weird.
- Men are hot, but I'm more pessimistic about finding a guy I'd want a relationship with than finding a girl. As a transfem, I'd have an easier time finding a guy, but a majority would probably be abusive or chasers. There might be fewer women, but it'd be safer(women are more likely to be progressive) and they'd be more into me as a person. It'd be harder to hookup, but easier to find a gf than bf.
  Even transmascs would be better than cis dudes because they're almost certainly not bigoted chasers that were raised to see women as goals instead of people.
  
  My wife would agree I suspect. She's transfem, and basically considered herself a lesbian until she met me.
- As a bisexual guy, this is not at all my experience with non-straight men. They seem to be mostly cool and well socialized.
- Wow! Sample size: 1. Sure showed them, buddy.
  Clearly not bi, btw, you're a misandrist. Congratulations 🎉!
  
  I've never seen someone so pissed off and offended over not getting any bussy lmao

As a woman, this seems universal to me. Not a gendered issue. More a social issue.

People in general, gender unrelated, IMHO
- Yep. Kinda.
  Im hitting 40 and those memes about being thankful for not being a part of the whole dating app weirdness is real. My two friends who are single and my age are sick of dating anyone under 35.

Are we really so far down the "obligatory memetic envelope because apparently just stating opinions isn't socially acceptable any more" slope that we've dropped past "can't stop thinking about x lmao" and on to "i was talking to my sister and, get this, i said x"?
- That was something I actually really liked about old Twitter: with only 140 characters (or whatever the original limit was), you really couldn't add the extra fluff to soften your opinion. You just said what you meant as succinctly as possible and let the masses react as they will.
  I'd like to think it forced more people to go "mask off" with their opinions and stop hiding behind fluff, but it also perpetuated an attitude of toxicity that made Twitter ripe for extremist exploitation

So... ok, look... I know this comment may be nuked into oblivion, but I'm just a guy (closer to agender in terms of how I identify, but try explaining that to my fellow countrypeople... ) attracted to women, who's had to deal with a Standard Eastern European male-focused upbringing and am now open and willing to undo that damage.
To get to my point, from the perspective I've detailed above, this is too vague to offer any clarity related to the specific problem and/or any ideal solutions.
In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we're trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own "man" as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says "men are toxic" and that's it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they're coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.
TRIGGER WARNING: the paragraph below contains a trauma joke, said joke exists solely to establish ownership of my trauma and neuter it of its power. I do not mean to offend anyone or minimise any traumatic experiences.
Personal anecdote, I could say the exact same thing as the OC about every one of my exes, all women, were I to allow myself to fall into the trap of resentment. Hell, I'm literally missing SA to get the Abuse Bingo.
The OC means nothing to me (no offence intended, I'm referring strictly to what message I can gleam from it), as I'm sure it would mean nothing to the many people I know who identify as men and are actively trying to redefine what that means for the benefit of themselves and those around them. At best, it reinforces the idea that "The Right tries to sell me misogyny and brain pills, The Left calls me an asshole," at worst it actively pushes people away from the threshold of change, and, in my opinion, neither option is of any benefit. Why not offer some clarifying details alongside it? Or even learning material if you know of any?
Again, mean no offence to anyone, shit's as confusing as can be to me and I'm honestly coming from a place of openness and willingness to do better. And, yeah, I know I'm essentially talking to a screenshot from Twitter, but, like... you get it.
- All right, let me give it a shot...
  Masculinity is good
  Toxic masculinity is not good.
  Toxic masculinity includes things like couching nice comments in mean comments. Saying things like toughen up instead of listening to feelings and concerns. Not doing a good job with personal hygiene because it's "gay". There is probably more, but it's 7:00 a.m. and my brain is not thinking good.
  Being a man means that you're a human. And like all humans you have feelings. No, you did not use your willpower and/or big brain to remove feelings from your system. No one can do that. All you've done is removed the ability for you to detect your feelings. Others can see them clearly, because you have lost the ability to identify your own feelings and are not able to tell when you are having them. Hint: A lot of times feelings will transform themselves into anger if you don't have a good understanding of what's going on inside you. Even feelings like sadness, if not understood can come out as anger.
  "I don't know" is a valid response to a question.
  Not everything you do has to be "rational" we are humans not computers.
  Figure out, create, and enforce personal boundaries. Likewise respect the personal boundaries of others.
  As a human being, you have intrinsic value. This is not tied to the work you do or the money you make. It is only tied to the fact that you exist. Because of this, you deserve to live and enjoy life implicitly.
  Assuming you're straight and you want sex with women. Sex is good. Straight women love sex with men just like straight men love sex with women. There is an unfortunate history between men and women where men are the aggressors, and have caused lots of pain, suffering, and death. This does not mean you are bad. It does mean though that you need to deal with the consequences of that history. Understand that going on a first date from a woman's perspective is very scary. So don't do anything that would cause concern. Be considerate. Give the woman an out. Keep your sketchy jokes to yourself for a couple of dates.
  When dating, remember and enforce your boundaries and respect their boundaries. Women, like men, are not intrinsically good at relationships.
  Pro dating tip from me to you: I have found sometimes that women just want to have someone listen to the problem they're having and sympathize. They'll do this even though they already know the solution. My instinct has been to try to suggest solutions. This does not go well. Just listen to their problem, resist the urge to suggest the obvious solution, and say something like " Wow, that sounds hard!"
  I understand what I'm asking is very hard to do, but remember 99.999% of my advice also applies to all humans, not just men. It's just as men, you've been kept out of the loop by culture. It's not your fault. Feelings and boundaries are hard for everyone. It's like learning how to ride a bike at 30 years old. Most everyone already knows how to do it. And now you're at the age where it's hard to learn.
  Don't forget you have intrinsic value. Love yourself!
  
  I like this comment a lot.
  Regarding the part about feelings, what should we be doing when we understand our feelings? Like, I understand that I'm sad or nervous about a new situation or whatever but I can't function as well when I'm sad or anxious. When it changes to anger I can still do the things I need to do. I'm probably not pleasant to be around but I'm not pleasant to be around when I'm emotional in other ways either so it kind of evens out because at least I can work. If I can take the time to just be sad I do but I prefer to be alone with it so usually it comes out when I'm driving or other situations where I know I'll have privacy. My friends would support me and I have supported them in the past but it's just something I prefer to deal with alone. The few times I've let it out in front of a girlfriend though have been the beginning of the end of the relationship. It's like they immediately lost their attraction to me when they saw me cry.
  
  Sincerely, thank you! This is more than I could've hoped for and, yes, it's plenty clear wherein lay the problems.
  Also reassuring, because the entire list just sounds like "be human and humane," which... I mean, yeah!
- In my opinion, while I do agree that keeping a finger pointed at the problem is a must in order to avoid it slipping from the list of things to solve moving forward, just pointing the finger and letting others figure it out is not. This is part of the very problem we’re trying to address, we all (yes, all, including myself) want people who identify as and own “man” as a part of their identity to grow and become healthier as members of this species, yet most material just says “men are toxic” and that’s it. There is no example offered, there is no list of things to be addressed, and, to be very honest, these feel like they’re coming from a place of hurt and not with an intent to teach, fix or help fix.
  this big problem here is that we need a fundamental shift in child rearing and how we raise boys. There isn't really a good example beyond that. Currently the best you can do is be a good mentor and role model for the boys and young men around you. Preferably without becoming a suspected child predator, which is the hard part.
  it's looking like we're moving towards that, but we have very little direction and very little scientifically backed evidence for any of this, so we're kinda just pushing into a marshy field and trying to find a coin someone dropped somewhere at this point.
  
  That's exactly why I'd add as many details as possible with posts such as this! Swing it from a "you're an asshole," to "you're an asshole because:" and I'm sure this'll resolve a lot of potential knee-jerk reactions in those who are targeted by and come into contact with said messages.
  I agree that it's up to us to redefine what healthy masculinity should be, there's a lot of redefining to do in general... And the value of information cannot be overstated in these cases, because examples of how not to do it can be the perfect points with which to define to-dos!

It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society

This is why I prefer queer people, they generally know how to be themselves and have emotions.
- Accepting that one is queer often includes a significant deal of shedding at least some of the internalized constraining expectations of society in order to accept yourself, so queer folk have a 'cleaner' slate to resocialize themselves on, if you will.
  As a general rule, obviously none of this is universal, and there are plenty of poorly socialized toxic queer folk out there. But I'm inclined to agree that they're less likely to be toxic, in my experience as well.
- As a gay guy, I call bullshit on that, unless you're bi and have first-hand experience.
  
  My experience is my queer circle. We have a nice online space where being yourself is normalized so there's no pressure to act all manly or whatever.
- There's def something to be said by just how alien the cishet dynamic is to me for example.
  I have no concerns regarding children, no concerns regarding gender or power, I'm in a transbian relationship with another trans woman, we don't have to work very hard to be equal in terms of societal sex dynamics.
  It's not all like we're super enlightened Buddhist monks or something, we fight and get pissed and get upset, but man, that kind of discomfort and disconnect and almost a quiet rage I feel that cishet men and women have towards each other because of the broader state of societal relations between the groups just isn't something that plays into it for me.
  I suppose while being queer is generally more a curse practically in most of the world, this sort of freedom is some reward for surviving through it. I'm grateful to my past self for powering through all the threats of violence and suffering, through being disowned and everything and tell her that living will be worth it one day, and that everything will be alright.

Men grow up to have whatever habits worked well for them when they were boys.
Tolerate dishonesty in boys? They'll be dishonest as men.
Encourage aggression in boys? They'll be aggressive as men.
Oblige pickiness in boys? They'll be picky as men.
This is inevitably true of women too, though girls tend to push different boundaries than boys.
Reward emotional manipulation in girls? They'll be emotionally manipulative as women. (Boys do this too, but they're often not as subtle about it, get called out, and switch to anger instead)
- Oblige pickiness in boys? They'll be picky as men.
  I feel like this isn't necessarily a bad thing... My son is super picky, and it's annoying for sure, but it doesn't deserve to be in the same list as dishonesty or aggression... It means he knows what he likes and won't let anyone push him into something he's not comfortable with. He'll try new things on occasion, but he has to be ready for it, if we push him he just digs in and refuses to budge. I've had the best results with "hey bud, want to try this? It's really good" and when he says no, "suit yourself, more for me." It doesn't work often, but when it does, it sticks. New food option unlocked. My wife will bargain with him, and she gets him to try stuff, but only to get what she's offering, even if he ends up liking it, he needs to keep up the appearance that he doesn't because it's been made into such a big deal...
  
  There are pluses and minuses for most things. Aggression can be very useful if the kid is into sports, or even competitive video games. Too much can be a problem, but too little and you get Milton from Office Space.
  Pickiness can be thought of as the opposite of adventurousness. If someone's too picky they may never try new things. If they're too adventurous, they may never settle down, and might seek out situations that are too dangerous and thrilling.
  I don't know if how you're raising your kid is good or not. But, I do know that as a kid, my parents never would have put up with that kind of pickiness. Either I ate what they were preparing, or I didn't eat that meal. On one hand, this did result in my absolutely hating brussels sprouts. They were always prepared ultra mushy and now, even if I try some that are prepared well, the memory of the disgusting ones comes up and I gag. On the other hand, I'm pretty adventurous when it comes to trying new foods. I'll hesitate a bit at brains or other organs, bugs, and fermented things, but other than that I'm eager to try new things. I think overall it served me well to have been pushed to eat outside my tiny comfort zone as a kid.

It could just as easily be framed that women are raised and socialized to have unrealistic expectations for a partner.
- I've seen guys who had no business even being in human society getting dates. Not sure "Women expect too much of men" is the issue here.
  
  Both can be true at the same time, because, you know, there are a lot of very different people.
  
  Women do most of the raising of children. Is it more likely that women raise their boys in a way they know will make them undesirable as an adult, or is it more likely that they push their daughters to do better and unintentionally raise their standards too high?
- I once asked my male partner to wipe down the bathroom counter because my grandparents were coming over. He did a bad job. I got upset about it. He said my expectations were too high. He had left a dead bug on the counter.
  We absolutely do not have too high of expectations.
  
  Hey, don't blame us. YOU dated him.
  
  He did a bad job.
  Sounds like his parents did a bad job at raising him.
  You should probably align with him on what "clean" means. It probably means "cleaner" to him, whereas you meant "nigh impeccable" - your definition isn't bad; there's just a mismatch between both your understanding.
- Don't be abusive or sexist, damn that's a high bar to cross.
  
  when you don't raise men such that they don't do this, it generally does become a high bar to cross.
- I remember someone writing that the bar for men to be "good men" is in hell. That always stuck with me.
  
  The bar to be a good partner is different from the bar to be a good person/man though.
  I dislike the conflation between the two because it implies being unable to have a partner implies being a bad person.
  Take a hypothetical man with severe mental impairments necessitating 24/7 care: Is it impossible for him to be a good man? Yes, that is a more extreme example but it just goes to show that there is a difference between the two. Being a good partner requires different skills than "just" being a good man.
- As unrealistic as 'be better than a wild bear'.
  
  It's funny. I went to the zoo the other day and I didn't see any women jumping into the bear enclosure.
  
  in my defense, bears can't speak so.

i'm wondering how long it's going to be before society realizes it has to do something about this unless it wants people like tate raising their children.
This has been a problem in the making for a long time and it's even worse now with the internet so accessible.
- Idk if it's getting worse, most gen z boys seem to have been taught to clean much better than those before and are expected to be able to cook. That's not to say all movements to equality happen in the right direction, it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.
  
  yeah but that's equivalent to shit like showering and brushing your teeth. If you don't know how to do that shit you quite literally are a dependent.
  it seems young boys have much more body issues than before (e.g mogging mewing etc) and that sucks.
  this is more of a shitpost than anything to be fair.
- It's much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
  I'm not saying we shouldn't call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
  This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can't shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we're more more comfortable with sharing.
  
  It’s much easier for people to mock and ridicule than to educate and correct.
  yes, and this is why i think we should be completely ignoring this aspect. It's not really primed to do anything productive.
  I’m not saying we shouldn’t call out poor behavior but the way we do so should be constructive as to not breed further resentment. This goes for most everything too, not just for the issue in the OP.
  it's not that we need to call it out, we shouldn't allow it. Everybody called out the bad behavior of hitler, it's not like he up and stopped doing that shit.
  the best way to do this is to instill it in the minds of children as they grow up. Which it seems we aren't doing at much of any rate.
  This is just a small part of creating a world that you want to live in. We can’t shut out the world or those we disapprove of, but we can contribute to the betterment of others, making the world a place we’re more more comfortable with sharing.
  exactly.

Every man is the son of a woman.
- Yes and no. There are plenty of people raised by same sex adoptive parents

Kinda unfair, plenty of chill men. If you keep running into undesirables, please reflect on yourself
- Cool, we caught a live "not all men" over here!!
  
  Not exactly, if you want me to blunt I am saying that if everywhere you go there are assholes, then the asshole is probably you. You being a woman is inconsequential
  
  With a bonus "It's clearly your fault as the woman".

I'd say the game was definitely rigged from the start, but perhaps not just in the way men are raised and socialised.
If you make a joke about the inadequacy of men, you're a bold and insightful person. If you make a joke about the inadequacy of women, you're a misogynistic pig.
Also, remember gents, you should be ok with automatically being considered a threat, because everyone knows men only think about one thing (this is technically true, normally it's "how the feck do I pay my rent this month, I just spent all my money on
<insert hobby keeping you sane here>
").
I'd agree that men are definitely not raised and socialised for that kind of system, but then again who wants to be?
- women don't want to view men as threats. yes, this problem cuts both ways. it ultimately still boils down to how men are socialized. what we see from women is just a response to that.
  
  I think it boils down a lot further than just the socialisation of men. It boils down to how people see one another.
  At the moment, the idea that men must be "defused" in some way, as if they might just "go off" is repugnantly offensive. It's a line of thought that harks back to racist ideas of "uncultured savages" who could "regress" at any moment.
  Similarly, the idea that everything is ok for women even now is bucolicly stupid. This is beyond simple socialisation to solve, and requires a solid bit of activisim.
  The really sad thing is we all want the same thing - for people to care about us, and accept who we are. For people not to hurt us, and to feel like we're part of the wider world about us beyond token consumption.
- I’d agree that men are definitely not raised and socialised for that kind of system, but then again who wants to be?
  nobody wants to be here here, we were all born without the input of our own opinion. You can either do something to change society to improve it for the better generally, or you can sit there and go "well idk guys society is hard to do"
  we quite literally just have to build a society that builds men up throughout their lives, we need to give them something to care about socially. Currently, they have nothing.
  
  You're definitely right that society needs to do a better job with this. Calling men toxic and joking about their inadequacy might make the person speaking feel better about themselves but it's not going to help society at all because that kind of talk is what pushes more and more boys into the arms of the Tate's of the world.
  
  Hrm, I'm not sure there. I'd say it's closer to just not knocking them down so often. Most of the time, men and women can build themselves up.
  A lot of the issues we currently have are based on women being taught to knock men down, and men being taught to knock women down. Oddly enough, which side has it worse depends on where you're from, but the motivation for it is always the same - power and the maintenance of.
- If you make a joke about the inadequacy of men, you’re a bold and insightful person. If you make a joke about the inadequacy of women, you’re a misogynistic pig.
  I agree to some degree, but there's also the fact that the socialization of men is the more dire problem in our current society by a significant degree.
  Also, remember gents, you should be ok with automatically being considered a threat, because everyone knows men only think about one thing
  That's not why women often consider men a threat.
  
  I think this is an agree to disagree point - my view is that the need to socialise men is only half the solution, and that tackling the rampant socially acceptable iniquity would be a more urgent one (as the longer it goes on, the more disruptive the eventual correction).
  Maybe we should try both, surely one dies not preclude the other? That way we'll be sure to fix the issue!
  
  But joking about and insulting them isn't going to make anything better, it's going to drive more impressionable young boys towards people like Tate.

As opposed to modern women, who are sterling paragons that men would be crazy to not marry.
- Woman are also not being properly socialized (although in my rant, I argue this is an intergenerational problem).
  The problem is everyone is sexually frustrated and no one can find anyone they're hot for who is available.
  Previous generations handled this with singles bars and one night stands, but Millennials and Zoomers are so overworked and underpaid they just can't be bothered to deal with other people's bullshit, men or women.
  Hence where all the lonely people come from, and the plummeting birth rate.
  
  What rant? Can you link it? Sounds interesting.
- What are you referring to?
  
  Mainly referring to the growing disconnect between men becoming more socially conservative while women are becoming more socially liberal. There's a growing demographic of men, at least in the USA, that are being welcomed into movements like MGTOW and Passport Bros, while women on the left are going on TV and social media talking about how they would rather run into a bear than a man, men are useless and have no place in society. Meanwhile what's in it for men? Get married, get divorced, wife takes everything, takes the kids, takes the house, even if they are the ones initiating divorce most often.
  Men are being raised to not be desirable? Which men? The upper 10% of men that 90% of women think they have a shot at marrying because they sleep with that 10% that has a rolladex of girls. Meanwhile those women often have 10 guys in the friend zone ready to go when they hit the wall at 30-40 and finally want to settle down with all their relationship trauma.
- Care to elaborate?
- Lmao at the crazies replying to you as if they couldn't bear the idea that the argument is empty and could be flipped on its head.
  
  ... What argument?
  Neither OP nor GameChild has made an argument. They've just said things.
  "Cheese is delicious."
  "No, it's not."
  "Damn, my argument was flipped on its head."
  What are you talking about?

As a guy who had a hard time finding a video game loving girlfriend, I understand the sentiment.

Am man.
I enjoy living alone.
I enjoy owning my house and keeping it clean and maintained.
I enjoy cooking at a pretty high level.
I don't particularly enjoy doing my laundry, but it doesn't hinder me.
I do not enjoy yardwork, so I outsource it to a landscaper.
I enjoyed being a single dad.
I enjoy watching my daughter making her way in the world.
I enjoy it when my daughter calls me to regale me with tales of her life. I enjoy it even more when she calls me for advice.
I enjoy stability.
I enjoy the silence.
I enjoy the autonomy.
I'm pretty boring.
Age has definitely begun to take its toll on my youthful looks, especially as all my remaining teeth seem to be rebelling all at once.
I do not adapt well to changes in my daily routine or my domestic environment.
I save money. I don't much spend it.
But I enjoy traveling whenever I feel like it to wherever I feel like to see whichever friends I please.
I do not own a bidet or an electric kettle, just a dystopian stovetop kettle.
Life has repeatedly, loudly, aggressively taught me that all of this is woefully insufficient.
I am not a desirable adult.
Please, take the bear and leave me be.

Yes, and also not incentivized as adults to change, shitty toxic alpa-bs traits often lead to a better financial status, and what is somehow even worse, to a better social status bcs we are meant to adore & respect such individuals.
(But also such dickishness isn't a behaviour type exclusive to men or male biology imho, that fact that we currently associate (and even encourage/keep the cycle repeating) this with men is the result of fucked up social constructs of the past, a shitty legacy of a flawed race.)

As a man I have to agree, we're fucking spoiled, but in the worst way possible. It's not just that we allow men to be pigs and monsters, society expects it of us as kids, and if we don't behave like it, we get called weird and gay and pushed aside as freaks. In my childhood it was very much be shit or be treated like shit. It really fucked my confidence and effectively ruined 90% of interactions with women, as I became to scared to even look one in the eyes, not wanting to be seen as a threat again for breathing the same air. As many men, it's a miracle I found someone (or rather I was lucky enough to have a good friend that would introduce me) and thank fucking god, because I was slowly turning into an incel... Now I actually get to be a functional member of society and make someone happy.
It always triggers me a bit when I complain about me not having showered/shaved/groomed my self yet and a women tells me "you don't have to, you're a man". I understand your daily struggle and injustice as a women and that you have it much worse, but what am I to do? Cut off my dick? Shrivel up and die? Maybe then I can become a vile enough rotting lump of shit to be a "REAL MAN".

Huh, so in essence boys and girls are raised to the same outcome.

"... in a way that makes them ~~desirable as~~ actual adults."
FTFY.

I am not interested in being desirable to women. Many women need to get over that some men don't consider hanging out with women their obstacle in life.

what good ever comes from being desirable to women?
- half your shit + any alimony payments 10 years from now

Sucks that your type has this character.
- True, but it encompasses a lot of people.

As a cis male, I find this post to be so true. And you're never done trying to unfold this socialization.
- The 'fun' part is when you start to unwind the really deeply rooted parts and question how much of you is socially conditioned reflex. Blegh. Really wish I'd just been lucky enough to be born at a point where society had moved past this shite.
- you shouldn't be trying to unfold it, it's not super practical, you need to focus on folding the rest of your clothes first. If we don't socialize children correctly, we can never truly fix this problem, but we're at a point where we can still fix the majority of this problem in younger children and men right now. We can worry about the holdouts later.
  Younger men and children as they age out can be a massive force to push this change as well. It only takes a few people to change the minds of hundreds of others.

This is such a delicate subject. How do you talk about a societal broad issue without hurting individuals? With posts like these, there will always be people who feel aren't the real subject of it that feel the weight of it, and it's not a healthy way to approach things like this. There is a societal level problem with men's treatment of women, but men likely to see this post likely aren't part of that problem and want to improve things, and posts like this only kind of serve to to put people down. However, it's not like this post shouldn't have been posted, it's a serious topic that should be taken seriously and not ignored.
- How do you talk about a societal broad issue without hurting individuals?
  it's like, really simple, like incredibly simple. You talk about the philosophy behind it, you talk about the social implications of these things, you talk about the moral and ethical concerns behind these things.
  If you do all of those you will be able to very accurately and precisely reconstruct the specific problem as well as how to find the solution, all while stepping on zero toes.
- I don't see it as a put-down.
  
  I don't see how "You were ruined by your upbringing and don't deserve love" isn't a put down.

I'm a cunt and i blame it on men.

I believe in women's rights and equity and equality for all types of people. That said, I found someone who makes my life interesting. Unfortunately my life is interesting in the wrong ways like half the time. It's aging me and I will die and early death. But that's at least an interesting life. Otherwise she doesn't do shit. No Job, no dishes, nothing. The only and most Important things she does is to teach the kids, do their workbooks together and pay the various bills. That's stuff I can't ever do because I go to work. While I'm happy that she does those things, I think she better find a job after the kids become more independent. That has literally been her excuse for not having a job for the past 15 years. So when the kids are finally doing well in school on their own, I will nag her like she nags me to get the garbage out. I will nag her to go get a job. That's my plan and I'm sticking to it because hey, she should be doing something desirable right? LOL. They cut her stomach up to get our babies out. That's probably the next excuse, a pretty good one, until I have my last breath. And to that I say: "Whatever babe, let me watch my show".
- Please don’t let stupid memes color your personal life weird. Whatever is going on with you and your SO is not a “societal” issue, it’s deeply personal and you’re both mature enough (I assume) to talk like reasonable people about it. Therapy may also help

What does this imply, exactly? They aren't responsible?
- More that we, as men, are poorly socialized to deal with interpersonal relationships due to the way that society teaches us to prioritize certain behaviors and values and eschew others.
  
  Like, "be manly, suck it up, don't cry" kind of stuff?
  
  ples ignore if i come off like idk... this has been just really fascinating to me and talking to people about this has been a fucking nightmare....and i have been craving to infodump on somebody... im sorry please forgive me. im really not trying to explain anything with any authority, but reading about this was kind of very low key mind blowing, more like "well of course..." :
  ........... so I have almost finished this book (1) about how misogyny became so normalized through history... and like the books' theory, based on archeological findings and studiyng various ancient texts, including the bible, so that theories starting point is before agriculture made us settle down, includes all the history up to when the romans okayed christianity into their statemodel and loads of other stuff that i started to write down in an editor until i realized i was trying to recap a book of 620 pages, 20 pages of references and 30 pages of additional literature.... im sorry i love this book in a way... and i hate it in a way... i can only recommend it
  ... so i already typed this and it is basically a deep dive into a recap and the starting point of the book kinda...
  before agriculture made us settle down, we had to be very egalitarian in regards to gender roles, there didnt exist any societal expectations yet except that of the little group you belonged to, but that was exclusively of cooperative nature, eventually the early humans realized left behind seed would sprout vegetables, and those places would be more often frequented and eventually we would settle at our favourite spot and for the first time we would call something our own, property was invented. some settlements would develop to be matrilinear, others would be patrilinear, but since women had always been the ones tending to the plants and little animals, while the men had been hunting large game, it would be the women who would have to grind the seeds they harvested into flour, so due to this hard work and the already higher exertion due to child birth, women would die earlier than men by about 10 years or so, men wouldnt become older than 40 or something...
  .... yeah hm
  (1 "Die Wahrheit ueber Eva, Die Erfindung der Ungleichheit von Frauen und Männern" Carel van Shaik, Kai Michel) am on page 580 and i want to murder some specific men. they already are dead though
  
  Is this really important for men? Most men tend to be more talented when there is value connected to it. For example in business (colleagues) or group interest, like sports and close/true friendships.
  And men seem to cope better with enemies. It's been studied.

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