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ieatmeat @lemmy.world

How would you deal with right wing parents?

For some context, we are first generation immigrants. My parents are Russian, my mother and her husband have been living here for 20 years (even got rid of Russian citizenship couple years ago), my biological father is still living in Russia.

It's damn exhausting to discuss political topics with them, especially my father. He keeps telling me how great it is to live in Russia, how their economy is doing great and how he's proud that they are defending their "brothers" in Donezk and Luhansk from the evil bandera regime in Ukraine.

My mom voted far right in the past election. She doesn't believe she voted for nazis, but the party's views on economics, climate policy and immigration seem to align with hers. She believes wind farms are harmful for the environment. What the actual fuck.

Whenever I try to argue with them, they tell me that I've been brainwashed by "Western propaganda".

I'm at a loss. I love my parents and I know that nobody's immune to propaganda, but it's heartbreaking to see them holding these toxic beliefs. How would you deal with parents like these? Should I just declare to never talk about politics with them again since it's pointless?

120 comments

  • I think a psychologist would say that if you really can't find common ground, it's best to agree not to talk about it.

    Indoctrination is highly effective. Your parents were raised in a place where toeing the line is the norm and questioning those in power is traditionally a great way to ensure you disappear. Russians are deeply indoctrinated when compared to western nations because that's how their society has been set up since 1922. The Soviet leadership ruled by suppressing any dissent, violently and without remorse. Just because the Soviet Union no longer exists, doesn't mean their ways of doing things disappeared too.

    The only way to change them would be to engage in an equally sophisticated program of indoctrination: deprogramming as it's called. Since you lack the resources of the Soviet Union, it would be a much more difficult task, especially since your parents are now older and their brains are less changeable. They were indoctrinated as children and by a very prolific system. Reversing that now, by yourself, is a tall order.

    I'm sorry your parents were failed by their leadership, it's truly a shame.

  • What's more important to you: having a relationship with them or changing their views? I don't mean this as some kind of "gotcha" thing. This is the choice you need to make.

    You already have your simplest solution to this (don't talk politics with them), but you made this post because you don't like that solution.

    Thankfully most things in life aren't so black and white. It's possible that you can work on them very very softly and slowly over time, but this all comes down to what you can stand in order to keep your relationship with them.

    I personally think that attempting to avoid political topics with them is the best direction to go here, but it's not my parents or my choice to make for you.

  • There is a way to deradicalize people. It's not easy, but it's possible. I'm surprised this isn't more common information now, but here it is.

    You need to understand that each of us builds our beliefs on a set of ideological structures. We believe in policies because of principles. We believe in principles because of foundations. All of these ideas reinforce each other and create our sense of self. Preservation of the self is the highest imperative, and so people resist persuasion with increasing ferocity the more foundational an idea feels to their sense of self.

    The way around this is to convince them that their foundational beliefs support a different concept. In many ways, it's actually a bit like the premise of the Christopher Nolan film "Inception" without the technology: the person needs to essentially feel like they themselves discovered whatever idea you're trying to convince them of, based on their existing beliefs.

    This means first understanding what their core beliefs are and why they feel that these support the policies and identies you're trying to change. Then you need to identify what can serve as a replacement, and find a way to get them to see the replacement as more appealing.

    To put this into practice, can you tell me what you'd describe as their underlying principles? What are their fears and desires that shape their values? Common examples for conservatives include fear of change; a belief that life is a ruthless zero-sum game, and that we all most look out for our tribe or we will be exploited and subjugated by our adversaries. Conviction that tradition is a guide to keep us safe from reckless thinking, and that prescribed social roles and hierarchies are essential for our very survival.

    If that's the case, you can't argue for progressivism by trying to convince them that we should all just love each other and welcome immigrants and that gender and sexual freedom are socially good. It's like trying to talk them into jumping off a bridge. Instead, you need to explain how if you want to look out for yourself and your family, you should do it in a different way. And these politicians who sound so convincing are secretly the kind of people that they already don't trust.

    Keep in mind that replacing their faith in these kinds of leaders with your preferred political leaders is likely folly. People don't invert their ideological identities. You need a replacement that is a good match, and because politics are often polar, a better substitute for dangerous political attachments are often simply outside of politics entirely. This may be non-partisan faith communities or sports teams or local social clubs. But if you can find a new story that fits into their existing theory of the world and satisfies their ideological needs better than right-wing politics, you CAN get people to slowly stop watching YouTube conspiracy videos or stop spending their time in far-right Facebook groups in favor of something healthier.

    All of this is hard to do, but it CAN be done. I find it very frustrating that this info is still somehow obscure considering how essential it is these days.

  • When I was younger, I would have argued till I was blue in the face. I've since learned to choose my battles and not waste my time and energy on battles I know I can't win... so I'd leave it alone as much as they allowed it, and eventually refuse to discuss it at all if needed.

  • You don't owe your parents anything. Cut them out of your life entirely if you need to and are able to. Otherwise either keep standing your ground and try to keep converting them, or just make it clear that you won't discuss politics.

    Both your parents sound slightly worse than my dad, who I went no-contact with for several years

  • Don't discuss politics with them if you want to maintain contact as parents.

  • Nothing you can do.

    It’s not uncommon for people who lived under harsh authoritarians to still support that methodology even if they emigrate to a more moderate and tolerant society to escape the shit country for a better life. Cubans, Russians, even some of my own family members who lived under one of the most infamous dictators of all, they have the same sentiment about their own fascist leader: “At least Hitler made the trains run on time.” Even if it isn’t true, the dictator would bash heads and keep the apple cart from being upset - not because doing so made anyone’s life better…quite the opposite. Bashing heads and keeping order prevented things like crackdowns, purges, arrests and the like that made lives worse.

  • Is "here" in the US? Or somewhere else in the West? I'm mostly asking because I could probably give more concrete tips if it were in Germany.

    Have they ever met a refuge from Ukraine? Did they talk with them?

    As for things like wind parks or climate policies or economics I think it is important to find a way to present that as "this is directly financially beneficial for you". Here in Germany, let's say, different independent financial institutions have calculated the total tax burden based on your income bracket if different parties were in power and went through with their plans. And lo and behold, of course FDP, CDU and AfD would have very much increased the tax burden on low to middle income people. Or they calculated that the great sounding plans of these parties would cost like 150 billion euros - which is an incredibly high sum - and explaining this away with "oh we'll make the economy prosper" doesn't work either (more calculations that are irrelevant if you're not in Germany).

    My honest tip is don't make it about ideology. If you want to keep talking about politics, don't talk about liberation. Don't talk about foreigners, nazis, climate change, DEI or LGBTQ. Your best bet is money. And safety maybe. But as others have suggested - reconsider whether you even want to throw pearls at swine and try to convince them of something different.

    And don't forget that a lot of behavior is a reaction of fear. In the beginning of the war there was a great podcast episode of Екатерина Шульман where she tried to emphasize that in times of aggression, it is a very natural response of the psyche to align with the aggressor. Your parents neither want to see the country they came from, love and probably idealize (as we always do with our past, especially when we don't fully beling somewhere new) as the Bad Guy, nor do they want to be scared - for their country, for their future, for their relatives, for you.

    Also, I just want to say, my condolences, and I deal with similar stuff. My family is either apolitical or opportunistic, and the best case scenario is "well both sides are bad". I've been scared to call my grandpa who has первый канал running 24/7 for a year after the war started, I can guess what side he is on. If you ever want to just vent about how awful and difficult it is, feel free to write me.

    • Diese Kommentarsektion ist nun Eigentum der BRD /s

      Ironically, my mom's husband is from Odessa, Ukraine, yet he still sides with Russia. They're small business owners and would likely profit from AFDs tax reforms. Their clients are also mostly "Russland-deutsche" and apparently most of them are also AFD voters. No wonder they were influenced towards this direction. Hard to tell if they have spoken to Ukrainian refugees, doesn't seem too unlikely given their clientele.

      I think your tip with money is right on the nose. I would also describe my family as opportunistic, now that you mention it, it sounds like a fairly accurate description.

      They don't seem fearful at all to me. My father for one thing believes Russia is the land of the free, where the government protects its citizens from evil NATO. I asked him what he thought about all those opposition journalists who disappeared or got jailed, or what about the laws forbidding to criticize the government on social media. His response was "nobody got jailed! It's all fake news! My colleague criticizes Putin all the time and nothing happened to him! It's those foreign agents and business crooks who got jailed, and rightfully so!"

      It's very frustrating, I feel you bro.

      Do you happen to have any resources on how to counter pro afd/ pro Putin arguments? I remember seeing a YouTube channel debunking Putins propaganda in Russian, but I don't know what they were called.

      • I cut ties with a friend my age (early to mid 30s) who grew up in Germany but had Ukrainian roots, and family in Ukraine next to the border. He also didn't believe what "Western media" said and only what his family on the border is telling him and "they know who is bombing whom". He has a Master's degree in psychology. It completely fucked me up.

        My parents also have friends living in Krim who were super happy about the takeover in 2014, and they are there, so they must know better, right?

        And there is some truth to that: We are also not immune to propaganda and of course Western media has its biases. I am confident that we too are being fooled here and there. You can see this in a very one sided media coverage of Gaza in German news. Most Ukrainian refugees I've met do indeed just want the war to end and some openly don't care whether their land will belong to Russia afterwards. They just want their relatives not to die. Zelensky is being heavily criticized and he is also not immune to corruption, while the internet thinks he is some god like hero with unquestionable integrity and balls of steel. He is also just a human and a politician. Ukraine is no moral safe haven and we have to remember that. My husband's cousin should not have been drafted, but he was drafted right away, because obviously someone bought themselves out and the place had to be replaced. Not everyone wants to fight for their country, but some were forced to, still. His second cousin was only drafted a year later, although he should have been in the first or second wave.

        That "evil NATO, nobody got jailed" theme of your parents sounds very much like what my family would say, all of it. And it is hard to counter and admittedly it was a narrative I believed until I went to Russia in 2016 for a semester, met people, saw the country, talked to locals, met my husband. My strongest tip for you is therefore - don't get sucked into it. First and foremost be sure in what you believe in. Be sure that there are indeed people who oppose the regime and the war. Be sure they do exist. I know this sounds trivial, but sometimes it is easy to start questioning yourself when your own knowledge doesn't come from local sources. After all, your parents probably have more ties to Russia and Russian media, so they have an "insight", while you might actually really be manipulated by second hand Western media, right? ...

        I've been thinking a lot whether I can give you any resources on how to counter pro Putin or pro AfD arguments. I'll start with the latter: Geld für die Welt is a youtube channel I stumbled across shortly before the election, and it has some great videos exposing illogical arguments (there is a great one about money as mentioned in my previous comment that I can link if you want).

        As for Putin's propaganda: I'm not sure I know many good first hand sources. Obviously Ekaterina Schulman's podcast Status (статус) has great insights, and I recommend listening to her speech как это пережить that came out three years ago. It gives you some kind of comfort. OVD Info - which you can support via Global Giving btw, strongly recommend that - has stats and information on political imprisonments and therelike. Most information I get is actually from telegram channels, which I started following about a year ago. There are also groups of the Russian opposition (Idk where you live, but here in Leipzig there is a great one, and the chat often posts links to articles, videos and other resources). As someone who only recently got into Russian oppositional media and activities (and having limited reading/understanding abilities), I cherish these kinds of insights by people who are much more in touch with what is happening. Most have been political activists for years and many have fled from political persecution. Basically, I know I can trust their sources. Maybe it is worth asking for resources there. There is also Team Navalny in Germany and Demokratie-Ja. Medusa etc is also a classic news source.

        But then again, I would not try to "debunk" or "show facts", I don't think this works well in general. It reminds me of a John Oliver episode - was it on UFOs, conspiracy theories, or vaccines? - where he has a great bit on how to talk to people who believe in such things without being condescending or just showing them "facts". They are not dumb. They believe what they believe because of subconscious fears, experiences, manipulation. No one is immune to this and it is important to meet the people where they stand and with respect and understanding and an open ear.

  • Whenever I try to argue with them, they tell me that I’ve been brainwashed by “Western propaganda”.

    I would ask "What makes you think so?" and go from there.

    Likely the only viable way is to guide them into realizing where their biases come from, or that they're taking views over without questioning them.

    If you seemingly can't change their opinions or views, and it burdens you, it's fine to accept different or opposing views. You can either evade those topics completely, and if necessary be vocal and explicit about that, or physically leave [the room] if necessary, or make your opposition clear while also making it clear that you have no interest in discussing it further.

  • It helps if you have siblings on your side who can shout them down. Genuinely. 3 vs 1, or 3 vs 2 is still enough to open their minds on some topics.

    Meet force with force, but only if you have an army. If you're an only child, a more subversive approach is required

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