Charlie Kirk was killed by a groyper

We need an archive link to this from this guy OR someone else verifying that this is true. I tried to find it, but couldn't. I'll give everyone a half an hour.

I now spent close to an hour trying to figure out Robinson's political leanings, and as of right now the internet simply does not know.
This is the closest:
A public records database shows Robinson’s family resides in Washington, Utah, where Trump garnered support from 75% of voters in the 2024 presidential election. Robinson’s parents have Republican listed as their party affiliation, said public voter registration information, and they are considered active voters (each cast ballots in the 2024 election that gave Trump a second presidency).
Public records also indicated Robinson registered as a voter in Utah in July 2021 but was considered inactive and did not declare an affiliation to any party when he registered.
And then there's a lot of talk about bullet engravings which leave me very confused. How can you engrave "If you're reading this you're gay" - 26 characters onto a single bullet? Even so, the messaging is open to interpretation. We simply do not know yet, and we might never know 100%! He's conflicted, that much seems clear.
IMHO most timely and objective article as of right now: LA Times
edit: I wrote this 24h ago. Surely the situation has changed by now. See you in a more timely thread!
- Wouldn't the bullet that called Kirk a fascist be an indicator of a possible left position held by the shooter?
- 30.06 is a large bullet and the words were allegedly written on the cases of the bullets, not the rounds themselves. Good to be skeptical but a fine point Sharpie could get 26 characters on there if you had small handwriting or did multiple lines or whatever.
- If you’re reading this you’re gay
  If you’re reading this you’re gay, LMAO...
- Even so, the messaging is open to interpretation.
  Really?
- "IfURReadngthisURG"
  It's tighter but gets the same message across
I assume you mean proof as to the claims.
But just in case if you mean the tweet being made and made by that account, it is still up and I made an archived version of it.
The account claims to be
journalist [...] TYT.com Rebel HQ. Previously anchored for MSNBC + AJAM
- I'm going to leave this up and let you all decide if this is true or not. He hasn't been confirmed as this journalist, but x is a POS organization, so everyone gets to decide for themselves.

r/conservative is really trying to paint him as a transperson associate.

'Associate' is certainly one of the words. Though I'm pretty sure that he would want to stay as far away from us as he could.

I'm embarassed to ask how I am supposed to pronounce "groyper."

I'm hearing the shooter had a trans girlfriend from a right wing friend of mine, but I can't find proof, does anyone know what he's talking about?

There's going to be an incredible amount of transphobia because they can do it. The right is currently obsessed with transgender people committing violence even though it doesn't happen anywhere near the rates of their cisgender counterparts.
Anyway, trans people had nothing to do with this but the right wing is still trying to blame it on them because they can
He had a trans roommate, but it hasn't been verified that they were in a relationship. In fact, it might not even be verified that they're trans. It's too early to believe this stuff.
- From what I've heard it was actually his landlord, not his lover.
No. It's likely he's just repeating some propaganda. There's been a lot of accusations with no proof and this is probably another one.
- Apparently Right Wing Media is reporting he had a trans girlfriend. But I can't find any trustworthy sources.
  Even the New York Post article I read says that the person was neither his girlfriend or even trans (but totally considering it)
  Mostly the article spun its wheels saying how much Kirk practiced love by hating transpeople. Because war is peace don't you know...
I highly doubt that, that sounds like something conservative media would make up and people would repeat far too much.
Here's the relevant casing message:
Notices Bulge. OwO What is this?
It's possible he's talking about personal experience, it's also possible he's just spreading hate. We don't know which it is, and we probable won't until the investigation gets further along.
- I've heard it's a 10 year old meme from furry communities that's just about bulges from erections in general, not really a gender/trans thing.
- I googled "Kirk Shooter Trans Girlfriend", but the only media I could find reporting it were Fox News and New York Post, and the latter admitted the person in question was neither trans nor the shooter's lover, just that they were "Cooperating with the FBI"
  The NYP was especially vile as it just went on about how great of a guy Kirk was, paradoxically claiming Kirk was practicing love and kindness by being openly transphobic. How Orwellian.
Some marking on the bullet got around, I think it was TRN but that's the manufacturer of the bullet if it's accurate. Apparently that is, I willI will say cause there's been so much crap about this douche being killed it's muddying any real info. Also read that the manufacturer doesn't make bullets for that caliber (30 odd 6? For a hunting rifle, I don't know guns well but know it's a hunting type still) so I really dunno and I did not look into that so need to check that out if it's important to the story. I only saw the the manufacturer didn't make that caliber from a single comment but read many with the bullet marking and one mentioned the pic going around is a 9mm.
Don't take my word for this Ive just been reading about the story, but it's what I've gleened from them all.
It appears he was just a more extreme right wing person than even the deceased is and that provoked him into action. Seems likely from due to how easily they're (extreme right wing) provoked in general.
- Just a slight correction, it's "thirty ought six" or "30-06" where thirty is the caliber(diameter of projectile) and ought six is the year the military adopted it. Not that that makes much difference, I'm just a nerd.
- We have specific wording. The most relevant is, "Notices Bulge. OwO What is this?"
  That has been reported by the governor of Utah, and Gov. Cox is actually pretty hesitant to repeat nonsense, unlike other governors in very red states. He actually seems to care a bit about trans people, at least trans kids, and I wonder if maybe he has someone in his family who is trans.
  I hope that helps. If you want to find the others, just look up "Kirk casings messages" on whatever media source you trust.

It’s kinda tiring everyone trying to figure out what a psychopath was.

Why? I think it's useful to try to prevent a repeat.
- There are solutions to stopping repeats but this Government will not pass them.

A very deep sigh of relief was uttered by me, but then turned into a groan of frustration, because all those right wing nutcases who were calling for the heads of all leftists are now again demanding sympathy. Fuck them.

remember, Charlie Kirk did not believe in empathy, so fulfill his wishes and do not have any for him
- Charlie was a pain in the neck.
- This is the full quote.
  No, don't "oh that's still bad", you thought all the people repeating half of the quote weren't lying to you with the specific goal of justifying murder. Classic brown shirt behavior.
Those who REFUSE to offer empathy, can't reasonably expect it in return.
They flop around more than a wacky waving inflatable arm flailing tube man.
I'm still thinking a lot of those "people" are just "bots"
Time to get un-relieved because this is fake (as discussed in other comments).

..... Am i the only one who was hoping to find out what the hell a "groyper" is somewhere in this thread? Sounds like something I don't want in my search history.

The Google search data blew up about that topic.
It's a right-wing group by Nick Fuentes. A combination of edge lord shit and believing the the right isn't pushing even harder.
They loved Trump until they didn't. And honestly, it's kind of ironic watching Frankestein's monster go wild.
Nick Fuentes' community. They're just Nazis trolls.

The thing that really got me is that anyone believes the thing about the bullet casings being engraved at all. That’s the kind of detail that’s just too easy to fabricate, and I can’t believe I bought it when they said the United Healthcare killer engraved HIS bullets. There’s no way for any news source to be sure which bullets actually came from the gun; also, wouldn’t evidence like that be kept secret by the police?

I dunno maybe I’m too paranoid, I just believe literally nothing from any media outlet anymore; they’re all owned by Larry Ellison’s kid

I just refuse to live in a world where feds came up with the phrase "notices bulges OwO what's this" and thought "yeah if we say the bullets had that written on them, it will demonize the left!"
The WSJ said there was stuff written on the bullets, and shortly afterward walked their statements back, so you are right to be skeptical
I don't buy the engraving story, with Luigi it kinda made sense cause it was one word per bullet, and that was logical to me. But a full setence on a bullet? Not buying it.
Does it really matter?
The 30-06 casing is pretty big, and has about 2"/50mm of space before it tapers down to where the bullet is. There's plenty of space for a short message, and you could probably engrave it with a nail. I'm guessing it would take a couple hours to engrave four bullets, which is totally feasible.
We have specific messages, and the benefit to lying about it is incredibly low, so why bother?
- The benefit is really low?
  Those "engravings" have been used in the last 48 hours to call for a civil war. I'm unsure what you mean with "benefits" to one side being "low" here
- I disagree, the benefit to lying about it was huge at the moment of the lie, and I definitely don’t put it past the fascists at the WSJ to fabricate this
- They falsely claimed the “engravings” were something to do with “trans ideology,” so the benefit is whipping up more hatred.

MAGA shit: the more right the shooter the more it proves how much the left has brainwashed him. Not a good look for liberals.

"You woke libs. Your message of peace, tolerance, and wanting the best out of everyone made this man into a violent murderer."
By Monday Maga will have "proof" that he was a post transition furry.
- They are already saying he had a trans ex. Must be nice to make up your own world as you see fit. Notice how an actual leftist (Mario's brother) actually took out some of consequence, and not just a talking head?
  Everything I know about Charles kirkenbitch is against my will. If the media never mentioned this, I would have never known he got taken out. But he is still just a talking head. Speed you who right winged people think are important (read; the ones they pay attention to)

Call me cynical, but I'm convinced that the MAGA mouthpieces all knew full well from the start that the balance of probability was that it would be one of their own.

They knew they'd have maybe 48 hours max to flood all outlets and social media with stories of it being a suspected trans activist, so that by the time the truth came out the story would already be old news and people would be fatigued and just remember that there was some uncertainty over his motives.

But his trans ideologies!!!!!!!
I have not watched the video yet (nor do I plan to), but it’s easily enough still online. I don’t think this one is as forgettable considering it was live streamed basically.
- I think Kirk is already forgotten. We're dealing with a talking point like Mr Potato Head going woke or Gulf of Mexico. If it's popular the topic sticks around. But nobody cares about Kirk, the actual person who lived and had various opinions.

I fucking knew it! I said it before that he was going to be killed by a far right jackass because he wasn't far right enough!

Didn't Spencer Cox even say that he is shattered that the shooter was "one of us" (read: white male) and not an immigrant? Like on TV, not in a cocaine-fueled xitter rant post.
Edit: Found it
- I will never be able to get over how this frightened, insecure 11 year old in an adult costume presents himself on camera:
- I think he also meant Mormon. IIRC the shooter's family is Mormon.
- The investigation is ongoing, but I want to make it crystal clear right now to whoever did this. We will find you. We will try you and we will hold you accountable to the furthest extent of the law. And I just want to remind people that we still have the death penalty here in the state of Utah.
  We can return violence with violence, we can return hate with hate. And that's the problem with political violence, is it metastasizes. Because we can always point the finger at the other side. And at some point, we have to find an off ramp, or it's going to get much much worse.
  Incredible the difference a day can make.
- What a pathetic excuse for an elected leader. Almost crying because the shooter was "one of them" and not their fake "enemy".
- I don't understand why he's trying to spin it like people from Utah are exceptional people for not rioting and burning cars. The guy was a grifting YouTuber. It's not like the president died.
- He absolutely said that and tried to make it seem like he was talking about him being an Utah citizen.
- Wow, he actually said that shit
- He looks so small
Not cancelled, delayed. The screeches about this being a left wing plot going back decades haven't gotten rolling yet. The far right's civil war will be back on by suppertime.
- Right on schedule.
  Release the Epstein files.

Maybe the shooter thought they had been hidden on a microchip in Charlie's neck and just wanted to let them out

Wtf is a groyper? Stop making up words. I can't keep up with this shit.

They are a neonazi christian nationalist group led by Nick Fuentes, who was known to have a long-standing feud with Charlie Kirk. To give it more context, these people are so far right that they view Charlie Kirk as liberal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groypers
- This is all funny to me because Fuentes is kind of a Latino sounding name…
I had to look “groyper” up too.
I think I’ve hit that point in aging where I just have to embrace being that antique family member and start asking my kids, nieces, and nephews what the slang means as new words get rolled out.
It's just short for piece of shit.
- We already have an acronym for that.

No matter how far to the right you are there will always be someone more right than you and will kill you for being too leftist.

is there a real source for this or just some twitter guy?

Some Twitter guy has multiple awards for journalism, I'm inclined to give him some benefit. But I would like someone to provide an official statement.
- Citations or GTFO because we should always check for sources especially in this day and age, awards or not.
It's just speculation. No real motive has been determined. https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2025-09-12/what-we-know-about-the-suspected-killer-of-charlie-kirk
LA Times wrote this less than 15 minutes ago:
Investigators are still looking through evidence and trying to determine a motive in the slaying.
The only things in writing are the words etched into the bullets, and those are mixed. He wrote an anti-fascist statement on a bullet casing and other text on others, but nothing to indicate he had liberal or conservative ideologies. If anything, he appeared to be mostly mad at the whole system.
- Honestly with this administration, I have a difficult time believing any evidence they provide. The head of the FBI is a fucking podcaster who was able to lie profusely to the point that he caught Trump's attention. That must take a lot of lying.
- He wrote an anti-fascist statement on a bullet casing
  No, he wrote Helldiver's 2 and groyper memes.
  Hey, fascist! Catch! ↑ → ↓↓↓
  Is for this: https://helldivers.wiki.gg/wiki/Eagle_500kg_Bomb
- There is a post on front page of Reddit that said shooters granny said he was maga on her Facebook page but I did not see any proof of it one way or other.
  Edit post is here now too
  https://vger.to/lemmy.zip/post/48535484
Most articles actually said the complete opposite of what this shitter post claims.
Cox said: "The family member referenced a recent incident in which Robinson came to dinner prior to September 10, and in the conversation with another family member, Robinson mentioned Charlie Kirk was coming to UVU."
There was a mention of how "Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate".
Most articles also say that one of the bullet casings had a "bella ciao" engraving which could be false flag but also could be real.
- Bella ciao is in a number of these far right guys' playlists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Shuster
Not to mention the stuff on the casings was specifically antifascist.
- Not really, the "hey fascist, catch" one is from helldiver's 2, where the satirical fascist human soldiers ironically call the bug aliens they fight fascists. The arrows are the code to call in an airstrike.
  This dude was putting his groyper memes on his bullets
- FWIW, there's plenty of alt-right "advice" out there to use left wing messaging if someone decides to do something stupid. It's potentially a tactic to misdirect and frame the violence.
- casings can very easily be planted. that shouldn't be convincing taken on its own.
That's what I'm waiting to see. We have to be patient.
- Turns out people with morals, on average, don't like killing. Um, sorry you're mad about it?
- This isn’t the type of “action” the left-leaning population tends to take. Violence begets violence.
- They said “hey hey, ho ho” right before “Donald Trump has got to go” so I don’t know how you can say that didn’t do anything..

Is kirk beavis or butthead?

Ah nvm, he's butthead...
- Anus neck

Not conservative enough? Jesus Christ, who does he want? Satan himself?

No, Nick Fuentes. Satan is way less far right
- Yeah, Satan, famously, stood up against a overbearing authority.
- Nazism.
  They want a return to Nazism.
  Nick Fuentes is where the path Charlie Kirk paved leads.
- I'm pretty sure Satan is all the way Left.
Satan is pretty liberal, I mean he didn't subscribe to authoritarian God, he's cool with anyone's sexuality or gender. He's not the one send people to hell because they broke a rule... He was sent there too.
- Also gave Eve the fruit of knowledge.
- I'm starting to think the satanists are on to something
Satan's not conservative enough either.
- Yeah, South Park Satan is a nice enough guy, just gets into bad relationships and rigged a fight that one time.
Satan probably wonders WTF is wrong with republicans.

Some really mind bending shit on r/conservative right now. Apparently the guardian posted and retracted some horseshit from a liar claiming to know Robinson and that he was a leftist. Conveniently none of the conservative dipshits noticed the retraction at the top:

Editor’s note: This article was updated on 12 September 2025 to remove quotes after the verified source who attended high school with Tyler Robinson said after publication that they could not accurately remember details of their relationship

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/12/suspect-charlie-kirk-shooting

At least I'm assuming the editor's note means they removed the quotes the conservatives posted. Either that or they posted a fake screenshot.

on r/conservative
I check into that sub every now and then to remind myself of what mental illness looks like.
- It's not mental illness, it's just an echo chamber. I also visit it from time to time to question if the content I consume suffers from the same problem.
- If i ever go there, it will to be post a meme about Trump releasing a memorial (grifter's) edition golden neck brace.
i peeked into that sub, they are claiming MSM are making fun of him, instead of honoring him.
- I'm just interested in the truth of it. People are jumping to conclusions, but definitely conservatives more so. I suspect that deep down they know almost all political violence comes from their side, though they somehow deny that fact.
  Wouldn't surprise me at all if the person who lied to the guardian was just a far right person hoping to help their narrative
- Cool sorry brother, let's stick to the fact that the assassin was a MAGAt.

Funny how the two main shots at fascists were done by fascists. Yes, we're obviously the dangerous party here🤡

Groyper vs TPUSA Gang violence.

Charlie Kirk's last words: "Count or not counting gang violence."

🤣 I love how they jumped the gun on this and it turned out to be one of their's like always. It's my favorite thing about these sheep. They make it so damn easy to write this.

I doubt many are scrubbing anything. They’re secure in their hate. Anyway, the right plays with fire inciting extremism, it’s just as likely to turn on them as the left.

Elon Musk, speaking by video link to a massive right-wing rally in London today: “There’s so much violence on the left, with our friend Charlie Kirk getting murdered in cold blood this week and people on the left celebrating it openly. The left is the party of murder and celebrating murder. I mean, let that sink in for a minute, that’s who we’re dealing with here.”
Meanwhile, said right-wingers were the ones shooting fireworks at mounted police, throwing bottles & cans, and getting batoned. The smaller counter protest had turned into a dance party.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/sep/13/uk-politics-latest-news-unite-the-kingdom-march-far-right-rally-london-labour-keir-starmer
- Arrest the dancers.
  Edit:/s, just in case.

Is this fake? Or is it text on bullet casing fake?

Y'all are fucking nuts, trying to read something out of the bullet casing messages. Those were shitposts. He's trolling you. Do you get it? He wrote shitposts on the bullet casings. Jeeze.
Somebody had a link to a kill charlie kirk themed groyper site and I think all the bullet etched memes were there. The kids grandma said she didn't know any democrats and republicans don't kill each other so they must have arrested the wrong kid. He is a registered republican and donated to trump*
A classmate called him a reddit kid as of 4-5 years ago (right wingers are circulating a redacted misquote that a classmate called him a "leftist") Like even if the kid wasn't a groyper he was likely being egged on by groypers.
There's also this article going into different ties:https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2025/09/12/charlie-kirk-suspect-is-a-gun-loving-trump-supporter/
All in all he's at the very least alt right.
*this last one may be a name mixup
- He was not registered republican. He did not donate to trump. He has a pretty common first and last name. Some people found someone with the same name in the voter and donor databases, but on further review it was someone else.
  The most current word from most publications seems to say that the shooter did not donate to trump, and was not registered with a party affiliation, and was an inactive voter not voting in the past few elections.
  I don't this this says much about his political ~~affiliation~~ leaning. Young people rarely have the disposable income to donate to political campaigns, and because of how american elections work with fptp districts, voting in a red state in a red city where 75% of the population votes republican would make no difference in the outcome, regardless of leaning.
  Most voters in this country are not able to make a meaningful choice at the ballot box, which is a contributing factor to the pitifully low voter turnout.
- Do you know the website or the name of it? I tried to find it online or archived and can't.
  Because that would put this whole thing to rest if we had screenshots of a groyper website with those specific bullet messages. If it exists I'm surprised the news isn't all over it.
  Editing because I found this: https://www.groyperarmy.com/
  It just leads to a shitcoin that was launched a few months ago.
- As disappointed as I am, I don't see any concrete evidence to support the shooter is alt-right.

The left's refusal to pull itself up by the bootstraps and do its own assassinations continues

"The left" rn:
I have tons of difficulty keeping hold of the weapons while simultaneously tugging the straps

Scrubbing posts is tantamount to destroying evidence.

Only if there were laws.
So.
- Lol what? Evidence isn't just a legal concept.

Well, now I really don't think those bullets were legit. Pretty easy to plant some bullets with some engravings.

Maybe the shooter was hoping to get away so it would be blamed on trans people?
He wanted to leave a pair of programmer socks, blahaj, and vial of estradiol, but he had trouble finding it all in Utah.
- Engraved bullets are fascist shit. Years spent sexually stroking guns and fantasizing about killing someone.
- extremely plausible. I've thought this entire thing was a false flag from the start.

Anyone got a source for this?

Which part?
Here's an article about the suspect in custody that mentions his recent interest in politics, and another article that mentions him being conservative. From the second link:
But several years ago in high school, Robinson – like his family – was politically conservative, and supported President Donald Trump ahead of the 2020 election, one of Robinson’s former classmates told CNN.
“When I knew him and his family, they were like diehard Trump,” said the former classmate. “When this happened, I was like… I don’t know what changed.”
Between the two, I think you can read between the lines and verify what's in that tweet.
- That's still not definite proof. Having the same opinion as your parents in high school can change within 5 years, especially after entering college, getting smarter and making up your own mind about politics.
  I'm going to wait and see. As time goes by, we'll get more information and we'll have a clearer picture.

That's right, folks. The real problem with Charlie Kirk, is that he didn't hate the Jews enough. /s

🗿

Usual suspects

Oop, called it.

Hey hey, get in line. Screenshots out!
- And I will admit I was happily wrong.
Someone else called it even earlier, I think, and more specifically used the term "groyper." This was before there was a suspect.
I said it the second I saw the breaking news on the TV.
It's the only answer that made sense

And just like that Trump cares more about the Ballroom we are buying him.

But that also doesn't stop him from spreading lies about 'WoKe FaR-lEfT AnTiFa'.

Those WOKE FAR LEFT Groypers!

As always, I like to see more than an image of a tweet, but Shuster is an actual journalist.

https://xcancel.com/DavidShuster/status/1966576856515203480
I still think it's too early to call this, I'm not seeing reporting by major orgs on it. It does seem plausible based on the messages on the casings, but I also thought it plausible he was a leftist
- @grok is this credible?
  Jesus christ kill me please
- The casings story was retracted, because of fucking course. NO ONE engraves fucking casings. That's so fucking stupid to believe...
  Major orgs haven't reported because they want itto be a leftist. They NEED it to be a leftist...

The GOP killed Charlie Kirk

No, MAGA killed a republican cause he wasn't maga enough.
- Fuentes groypers don’t identify as MAGA, they fancy themselves way further right and more powerful.
  They’re all shitposting weaklings who get off on trolling (online and IRL) because they think it means they’re invincible manipulators and the world is their plaything
- Nah, Kirk was definitely hateful, stupid, and bigoted enough for magats
- Groyper killed a MAGA. They’re natural enemies.

I'm just shocked. Shocked I tell you.

If this is true it's going to blow my mind. Hope I keep my lizard brain

Perhaps Tyler disagreed with Charlie in regard to the handling Epstein files and solved it with a traditional MAGAt solution.

A groyper is a made up term by maga. Its only purpose is to allow maga to distance itself from when one of their cult members follows through on the rhetoric and hate that maga preaches. That is all this term is. It is so that maga can still be as racist and bigoted as they want to be, but distance themselves from the violent acts of their own people. Do not believe anything else you read about this term.

Edit- typos

I think Fuentes and his fans started calling themselves Groypers before anyone else did, right?
Nick Fuentes and his followers refer to themselves as groypers

Given the "hate" quote, I wouldn't be surprised if he had left leaning beliefs. But does it matter? Conservatives were practically running with the trans-shooter narrative before his body even hit the floor. And for those who aren't complete fucking morons, most understand that the only people who commit murders like this are mentally unwell which vastly overshadows whatever their voting preferences are.

There's something to be said for conservative rhetoric appealing to and amplifying such delusional people, which may be why the vast majority of such violence is perpetrated by rightwingers. After all, a sociopathic lack of empathy contributes to both violence and bigoted worldviews. But they're hardly causal, essential, or exclusive.

A crazy terminally-online white kid with a gun shot a racist fascist asshole dead. The reaction from both the right and the left is influenced very little by any other facts. Some people are sowing chaos and it's working. Most don't have the time, ability, capacity, or desire to sort through the mess and evaluate nuances and uncertainties: they're just running with whatever fits their biases best. Not only does the truth not seem to matter, but what conclusions they're drawing also doesn't seem to matter because they already had them. It just nudged everything forward by a notch.

https://www.thecanary.co/trending/2025/09/12/charlie-kirk-suspect-is-a-gun-loving-trump-supporter/
- Didn't donate to Trump. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/charlie-kirk-suspect-trump-donor/
  Could pick other things apart but less straight forward and I'm about to go to sleep, so I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader. Anyways, call it a 50/50 chance. But as I said: it doesn't really matter.
- Damn... They really go over it case by case

Duh

lalallalalalalalalalla, how much irony can you take?