Lemmy is a tech literate echo chamber
I feel like the people I interact with irl don't even know how to boot from a USB. People here probably know how to do some form of coding or at least navigate a directory through the command line. Stg I would bet money on the average person not even being able to create a Lemmy account without assistance.
Something that amazes me that I often see is tech literate people wastly over estimating the tech literacy of an average person. Any amount of tech support would tell you that most people barley know the basics and doesn't care for anything else.
Relevant xkcd:
It's easy to forget the average person probably only knows terminal commands for Debian. And Fedora, of course.
Whenever this topic comes up particularly with tech literacy, this article never ceases to amaze me: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/computer-skill-levels/
The curse of knowledge; makes you lose the perspective of the average man in the field of your expertise.
How bad this is in practice is something you can choose to mitigate simply by regularly talking to normal people.
Source: I'm a climate scientist, I do this all the time (and only rarely get looks of complete confusion)
Once you work at a place doing lvl 1 tech support, like say a Geek Squad, the perspective smacks you in the face everyday until you're broken.
I know people who claim to be tech literate but then keep sending me actual photos of their screen whenever they want to share anything. :|
Admittedly, I do almost all of my messaging from my phone, and 100% of Lemmy. Most of the time if I have something on my computer to share, it's easiest to just take a picture. If fidelity matters, I can take a screen grab and share it to my phone via KDE connect. It's not a matter of knowing how, it's the effort required for a slightly clearer image.
When something goes wrong the average response is some amount of confusion and anger with rapid clicking
There's a huge number of people here who would learn a lot from giving tech support to someone like my mum.
Not me. I am so out of the loop here. But I loved the social aspect of reddit and was on it long enough to know how great it was when it was young. Hoping to find that here.
Honestly, Lemmy does have a lot of the early Reddit vibes. Reddit was largely started as a programming forum, and this user base definitely has a lot of similar traits.
And if you start using user tags, (not native to Lemmy, but most clients have the functionality added,) you’ll realize just how active users are, and how tight-knit the comments sections really are. I often end up finding myself responding to the same 10-20 users.
You're now tagged as "user tag advocate". See you around!
Can anyone recommend a good Lemmy client for Linux? Bonus points if it works well in portrait mode.
I am on Pop!_OS 22.04 and the only apps in the COSMIC Store are Interstellar and Lemonade.
Interstellar seems fine but if there is a way to tag users in it I can't seem to figure it out, it also seems designed for Landscape mode and it's a little cramped on my second monitor.
Lemonade hasn't been updated since October of 2023, so I'm a little wary of trying that one out. I can't even tell if they are still developing it or something called Ouch Browser, if its the same project with a new name, or just abandoned alltogether.
I know there are other Lemmy Apps but I am a little lost tbh.
TIL, user tags, cool
I had a few - not a lot, but some - user notes, but recently switched phones (and to GrapheneOS) and lost them. I used and use Connect, which does have an export/import process, but when I start it I can't find a way to actually begin the export, i.e. generate the file.
As such, I'm stuck recreating notes by hand. Still, I enjoy creating new ones, as I just did for you, and I love the aspect of Lemmy that you described.
then it just became an aggregate forum where you can discuss many niches without being censured like with alot forums from a single mod/owner.
NGL, a lot of my relative tech literacy comes from just seeing all the programming posts too and getting curios.
Just the other day i learned that there is so called "snowflakes" that apprently work as a way to enter the tor network by pretending to be a video call. Crazy cool stuff some people come up with.
curios
Maybe you could become CuriOS... like operating system curious? OK I'll see myself out.
Welcome to the trenches.
Linux is second nature to us geeks, so it's easy to forget that the average person probably knows just Ubuntu or Fedora.
And Debian GNU/Linux, of course.
Wait is this already in reference to the xkcd about experts overestimating the average person's knowledge about their subject or should I go look for it?
It absolutely sounds like a reference to the xkcd.
Webcomics are second nature to us geeks, so it's easy to forget that the average person probably knows just ADHDinos and Loving Reaper.
And xkcd, of course.
Unless it's the worst slop on r/comics like PizzaCake, then it has like 50k upvotes from the lowest common denominator.
Hey, the average person doesn't even know what Linux is, nor what thermal paste is.
Never heard anyone call sunscreen thermal paste before, must be a regional thing?
I am very technical-minded and have been using PC's since the early 90's on a pretty deep level, but have no experience or interest in anything linux related so about 30% of Lemmy frontpage posts might as well be Sanskrit.
Naturally
This should be a copypasta.
I can’t do any of the stuff you mentioned. I’m here because I hate traditional social media that are not social at all. And I hate ads. And have an interest in community driven stuff and DIY.
And I don’t feel like I am alone here.
I’m with you, I can’t do any of that stuff. I don’t like most social media , the lack of ads and the 3rd party apps was a big factor for me to join.
Dw it's easy just type
sudo computer open the pornography file
And that's how you command line navigate
On the subject of not knowing most of the things you mentioned, I'm with the other commenters. As a (hopefully) Linux newbie, do you know of any thorough guides I could use to install Linux on my 10 year old Asus X550J laptop?
Relevant xkcd: Average familiarity
You severly overestimate the average persons tech literacy even when you try to correct for it. Booting from USB is already a really advanced topic.
Though creating a lemmy account is not that complex. Typically all you have to do is fill out a form on the websiten instructions included. The problem there is not the tech literacyn but the willingness of the people to even interact with systems they don't know, like finding a home instance or understanding the concept of the fediverse. Most people could create a lemmy account, though also most people wouldn't.
Though creating a lemmy account is not that complex. Typically all you have to do is fill out a form on the websiten instructions included. The problem there is not the tech literacyn but the willingness of the people to even interact with systems they don’t know, like finding a home instance or understanding the concept of the fediverse. Most people could create a lemmy account, though also most people wouldn’t.
Spot on, it feels complicated because they don't understand what's being asked. I've said this before previously, but most people have no concept of frontends and backends. For most people, Twitter is just something that's on their phone, and it uses the internet to see what other people have in their Twitter apps on their phones.
Because internet usage and software generally is like 99.999% commercial, even the idea of closed and open source probably doesn't make sense to a lot of people. "Check out Mastodon, it's like Twitter but anyone can host it" would mean nothing to the average user. I'm on the absolute lower end of tech literacy in this community, so it's constantly apparent how much my Lemmy friends overestimate the general population.
Edit: To be clear, I say that non-critically. The tech industry has made it so astonishingly easy to interact with incredibly complicated systems, but they exploit the resulting ignorance for profit and market share because it severely limits our agency to choose something less antagonistic.
Tbh, getting into lemmy is quite a bit more complex than e.g. into Instagram or other centralized social media platforms.
Compare this:
with:
Slight hyperbole here, but choosing an app and instance alone is complicated enough to scare away lots of people.
There's a comment above this who incredulously exclaims "boot from a USB drive‽" and I can tell you as someone who does tech support, that may be legitimately 1% of the US population.
People are lazier than ever now. Thats one reason I dont like the tech illiterate normies. Its SO EASY so learn how to use the tools you interact with 24/7. But they are lazy.
Ok booting from USB can't be that advanced is it? I mean you just plug the thing in then mash F2 on startup, select the USB from the boot menu which is no more complex than browsing a picture folder and hit save and start.
Hon' some people don't know you can align the USB by checking if the holes on the outside are filled or not and have to deal with the unraveling the USB superposition dance.
Getting a USB in on the first try is considered wizardry by average person. Booting from one? May as well be Zeus with command of electrons like that.
The average person can't even download the right authenticator app when prompted. The average person can't type their password the same way two times in a password change field. The average person does not know how to plug monitors and peripherals into a docking station.
Whatever you think the average skill level is? It's lower than that. By a lot.
You are completely correct and their comments prove it. The bubble is strong here. But it’s a pretty nice bubble
Very proud of all the special little techies in this thread who are definitely smart and different because they grew up troubleshooting a fax machine and not a touch screen display like the younguns of today.
"God damnit!" Kicks and punches machine out of frustration
-machine starts working
"You fucking right, better run correct, or there's more where that came from, bitch!"
Walks off like a gangster
At least we could get the fax machine to do things. The touch screen is so many layers of abstraction away from any raw functionality it's like the pull string on a See and Say.
Bruh most people don't even realize how much of modern healthcare still runs on fax machines. I didn't even grow up with fax machines but I had to learn how to use them when I started my career. Most of our interactions with the government and pseudo government agencies for our involuntary / committed Psych patients is done by fax. The cops forgot to give us one of the pages we need when they dropped off a patient a few weeks ago and I found the NonEmerg line for their county and spamcalled their Dispatch at 2am until they faxed it to us.
This is all to say that nurses as a whole are extremely tech illiterate. Most healthcare workers are; they've spent a lot of time learning anatomy and physiology and have had very little time left in their schooling to learn tech stuff. I grew up using CL Linux so I do most of the 2am tech support for everything that doesn't explicitly require IT credentials. The wildest thing to me was watching both older nurses AND younger nurses hunt and peck to type. I grew up using AIM to talk to my friends as a teenager and nothing will increase your fluency with something more than most of your teenage communication that way.
But it also means that I still have to go back to reddit to find people to properly empathize with me. As the OP says, a lot of these people can't even empathize with the fact that I can't find people here to empathize with. They just blame my fellow healthcare workers for not keeping up with technology. Like, cool, but I also just wanna be able to talk to them!
I still troubleshoot faxing on a semi-regular basis. I use them with Analog Telephone Adapters (ATAs) in lieu of Plain Old Telephone System (POTS) phone lines. They are, shall we say, special
Don't worry, my fair tech-literate maiden. I, a tech-dyslexic, am here to bring down the collective IQ and make the chamber echo less. You can thank me later, for adding some much needed intellectual diversity to the mix.
*with strong beliefs on random topics
Not my fault. Reddit pushed me here!
My own experience, as someone who is not necessarily tech illiterate, but also not an expert either:
I decided to check out some basic Linux stuff, and found a post directing newcomers to a website that was supposed to be a top-notch beginner's guide. This guide started with a history of Linux, written in the style of an early 2000s GameFAQs guide. It then jumped immediately into selecting a distro, and started describing each option with terms like "lightweight"and "robust" without explaining what those terms meant in that context - or even defining what a distro was in the first place.
As someone who has used Windows for around 3 decades, I could make some inferences to fill in the gaps. But I imagine someone with less experience with PCs would get completely lost.
Now on the flip side, I've also shared in another thread the story of how I lost interest in programming partway through my introductory university course, and mostly received positive feedback. The folks in that thread seemed happy to hear the perspective of an outsider.
Ironically a windows veteran can give you a better introduction to Linux than a Linux veteran.
makes sense, since Linux users (me) are drawn to foss projects like moths to a light
Literally me
🎶 The moth don't care when he sees the flame 🎶
Same
I don't think it's an echo chamber, I think you are wrong about that. The proof is that I am disagreeing with you right now. Therefore, not an echo chamber.
Impeccable logic
What if their claim was this this site was an echo chamber of tech literate but disagreement.
By denying it's an echo chamber you prove the point, but then it is an echo chamber and it's no longer disagreement, so then it can't be an echo chamber...
The average person nowadays could not create and reliably access a Facebook account if they didn't have auto complete/password save.
The worst is twenty-year-olds that have never used a desktop. They just stare at the mouse, keyboard, and monitor like they have no clue what to do.
Back in my day we had to flip the printer paper over to print double sided. These kids these days no nuffin
Duplex off the top rope!
Flipping it over in the dot matrix was a major engineering task.
FACEBOOK is pretty hostile to account creation if your not willing to be datamined.
My kid is just getting into gaming and I made sure to encourage them to game on PC for just this reason. They still prefer the console but understand a mouse and keyboard.
They can't really read yet, but once they can I plan to start including them in my non gaming PC activities to make sure they're comfortable in that environment.
Why would normal people know how to boot from usb? Shit, if you clean the ads out of a windows start menu, a normie will think you're a wizard for doing the inconceivable.
I just don't understand how it's more "techy" than Reddit. I just want our user count to keep going up.
I think we should focus less on hyping federation/decentralization and more on how there are no ads and the content is really coming from actual users (and maybe a leftist bias).
I got a few friends on here by explaining that choosing a server is no different from choosing an email provider. Everyone understands email, that you can communicate with most other email users no matter what their provider is.
It's federated. Have to choose your instance and create an account. Then not to mention what happens if your instance shuts down.
The Leftist bias is a selling point? That's literally all social media except Twitter
This is true but I ultimately don't care.
Is there any social media site that isn't an echo chamber? They're designed that way on purpose in most cases.
There are enough forums catering to idiots. I appreciate the better moderation, tech savviness, and lack of tolerance for right wing BS on Lemmy.
"Whats the best tool for..."
"Linux!!!"
"Haven't yet said what I'm trying to build"
"Pls just upvote me and tell me I'm good"
You mean Gnu/Linux etc.
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as Linux, is in fact, systemd/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, systemd plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning systemd/Linux system made useful by the various daemons and services provided by systemd, which manages system processes and configurations.
Many computer users run a modified version of the systemd ecosystem every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of systemd which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the systemd framework, developed for streamlining service management on the Linux kernel.
There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is usually paired with the systemd framework: the whole system is basically systemd with Linux added, or systemd/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of systemd/Linux!
Now, let’s talk about systemd itself. systemd is not just an init system but a sprawling suite of software designed to harmonize the management of services, logging, and much more across all those Linux distributions adopting it. While there are plenty of critics who claim that systemd suffers from mission creep, and bloat, they fail to realize that systemd is here to unite the divergent spirits of the Linux universe into a cohesive whole.
It’s often cited that systemd is the first daemon to start during boot and the last to terminate at shutdown, meaning it’s the parent that manages the chaotic brood of processes that stem from it. But of course, the truth remains that Linux is merely the kernel within this greater whole. For many, using systemd without acknowledging its complex ecosystem is like using a bus without realizing it’s the driver coordinating every route.
While some advocate for a leaner alternative, the benefits of systemd are often overlooked, such as its ability to parallelize the boot process to expedite your start-up time, or how it beautifully integrates logging with journald, merging many separate tasks into one efficiently managed service.
In conclusion, while there’s certainly a Linux kernel powering many systems out there, it’s really the systemd suite that brings it all together. So please remember, when you’re running your Linux, you’re not just running Linux; you’re enjoying the splendid orchestration of systemd/Linux, or as I like to call it, systemd plus Linux.
Good boy, you do the groupthink very well. Have some uppies :))))
Look at the clowns that don't get it, replying to me
Ffs
My mom is a tech literate echo chamber lmao
Idk what this means but I'm choosing to believe you're a new form of sentient life born out of the Lemmy circlejerk
It means that I’m just a guy living my truth brœther. No more no less
This is an unusual way to make a "your mom" joke.
For the past month I've been developing a NixOS platform for local businesses.
I keep overestimating how much people know. It's infuriating trying to wrap my mind around the fact that I don't need to explain why it's amazing, just that it is, and it works. I feel like I'm Mugatu talking to Zoolander at times.
Even if I could perfectly analogise what a declarative operating system is, it wouldn't matter to a client because they don't understand how a non NixOS machine works.
Though, the worst part is trying to explain to someone, who is "happy with Windows" why they should not be.
How the fuck do people in 2025 not fucking loathe Windows? There's fucking ads in the start menu. There's like 4 different places to change settings. The systems bloat and slow to a crawl as the OS ages.
It's fucked.
Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2501/
Easy, they got slowboiled since the Vista era.
Windows sucks ass so bad nowadays. I put windows 98 on a vm the other day and its literally better ui and function than 11. Not to mention, no Spyware and ads.
I've explained NixOS to non-tech business owners by treating it like any other piece of equipment. You want to upgrade your widget stamping machine? Buy and install the new machine that meets all the specs and stamp some widgets with it. Only after you're satisfied that it works do you remove the old one.
Very much so, when I brought up that I am a software developer who just loves using their Macbook, because it just works, I was told I stupid because I am now locked in and what if I want to compile my own flavor of window manager, like with no sense of fucking irony.
Hey, you do you. I refuse to use anything apple related, but I'll be damned if they don't make great hardware and extremely convenient ecosystem.
I want an iphone just for the convenience factor, but having dogshit integration with my android smartwatch/devices means I will never buy into Apple. Probably for the best.
Dicking around with a shit-box laptop running a barebones os all day and then opening my Mac book pro makes me question if this whole Linux thing really is it.
And then I have to install a niche program and apple calls in an airstrike on my position and I remember why I have the shit-box all over again.
I don't like being "locked in" but there's no alternative for a super light laptop with 10+ hours battery and good touchpad.
Tbh, I wanted to go with Framework, as I very much like the upgrade ability and reducing e-waste, unfortunately at the time they didn't ship to my country only some neighboring EU countries and while I could have made that work as a private purchase, I was purchasing through my company and there I couldn't make it work, so it was a choice between something like the Dell XPS ( which has notorious touchpad failures) pr the macbook pro, so then it was an easy choice.
its because we're old people.
I'm gen z. gtfo with that boomer mentality I refuse to become like you
ok zoomer. (/s)
But for real. I'm an elder millennial and most of lemmy is millenial-ish. Gen X and boomers, the ones who are on platforms like this, are incredibly rare. Reddit already skewed older than lemmy, and most of us were the earliest users/ power users of Reddit. So there is a reason why lemmy skews tech literate.
Like, we were the first generation to grow up with the internet in the house but also probably still had a land line phone. We had to figure shit out and also got to learn along with the technologies development. My intro to programing was Intro to Flash for making poop games that you might have played, but I also drank crystal Pepsi and could go see a double feature for $1 at the matinee. We bridge the gap between what was an effectively analog world to an entirely digital one.
So you aren't wrong, but you are also on my lawn.
I'm a youngish millennial and I'm pretty sure I'm about to die of old age
@TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world @Fleur@aussie.zone I'm 30 and this is deep (to quote the meme)
I find the echo chamber to be nice when it is semi tech-minded people that aren't an unending diatribe of reposted wholesome stories/fake chatgpt posts/godawful jokes in the comments that stopped being funny in 2012.
I agree. It feels like Hacker News; it's better than having the general public saying stupid things in every comment.
I don't know how to code, but I know my way around computers.
I can live with that.
Yes. And everyone thinks they are the smartest human ever because of it. As you can tell by the responses here lol
Being smart about one thing doesn't mean a person is smart about all things.
Except the for all the other tech-minded people here...
I am not tech literate like most programmers or coders, but I can look up things and read. Usually covers most of my needs overall, so it's better than nothing. Where I work I am seen as on par with any IT person but I just literally read instructions and follow them. Tried to explain it, but they treat it like I was blessed by the tech gods or something.
I'm almost offended for my profession. Most of the programmers I know are quite tech literate, to the point it floors me when I find a coworker who is tech illiterate. Like, bro, it's literally our job.
If you can do this you are better than, must tech supports i have worked with.
from my interactions with people after i told them i switched from chrome, the average person doesn’t know the difference between a web browser and a search engine…
Are you saying you don't use The Google anymore? But how do you find all of your baking recipes?
The average person doesn't seem to know the difference between a file explorer and a browser at my work. Nevermind trying to explain the difference between a webapp and a desktop app (god I hate teams).
I lived in a tech echo chamber until I was in my 30s. This is because my dad is a baby boomer computer engineer who was working with computers since the 70s and we always had a computer at home (no consoles, just computers). First was a c64, we even briefly had a c128 (that didn't work) and then we got a 386 followed by pentium machines and we first hooked up to the internet in the 90s... and before the internet we went on dial up BBSes run by ultra nerds.
My dad still keeps up with tech and is probably better with computers than many recent CS graduates. It wasn't until I worked in tech support that I realized... Holy shit! There are people who have no idea their computers have directories! As in, if the shortcut isn't on their desktop, then their program might as well not exist.
Also one thing I learned that if you tell someone to go to a site and you spell the URL to them, then 99.9% of the time they will Google it, because they don't know what an address bar is.
I used to think those 'how to use a computer' courses in college were a giant waste of time (and an easy A for people like us) but I realize that these people could absolutely benefit from something like that.
And that is when I was working with people who had laptops mostly. When I worked in mobile tech support... fuck me! Do you realize that for a sizable chunk of the population the only computer they have is their smart phone? Those people are far, far worse. When I worked in mobility we were not allowed to hang up on clients for any reason (it was grounds for immediate termination) but at least a few times a week I had to deal with a client who did not know how to hang up their phone! No joke. They were accustomed to the other person hanging up and they didn't know how to do it!
This is doubly frustrating when those people are using flip phones rhat have a clear hang up button on them.
So yeah, acknowledging we are in a bubble is a good thing. But it isn't a bad thing to hang out with fellow tech nerds either.
I discovered the USB boot by accident and thought my laptop bricked for no reason!
Pressing random keys as an 8yr old while booting till the computer makes the funny beep noise and the screen turns into a .txt document
Hahaha! I’m sorry.
Gods. Floppies were a PITA with this. The default was (reasonably) to boot the floppy first, but there was no fallback for when the disk was unbootable. So, if you were saving your work to a floppy and left it in when you shutdown, the next time you turned the computer on it would just sit there saying “hey! Your floppy didn’t boot” until you ejected the floppy and powercycled it.
It seems like a lot of people almost delight in their tech illiteracy. And the big corporations are laughing all the way to the bank.
Caught my teenage cousins bragging about how they can "make a video game without any coding". It was this shitty iPad app I'd never heard of.
I mean, technically competent people sometimes do too. "Every technology I don't use is obsolete and insecure" is a badge of honor for some people.
like the early internet the tech gap was a natural filter and i see that as a good thing for the quality of the conversation.
Well, unless quality of conversation includes broad range of ideas and opinions. Personally I'm pretty happy with my little echo chambers lol.
This used to be what people said about digg and then about reddit
early days Reddit and the whole Digg vs Reddit thing was wild. I remember someone made like a stupid long comic about digg vs reddit. and yeah Early reddit was much like what Lemmy is now.
Well that sometimes keeps the conversation clean though. Most computer people seem to be a little more intelligent than the average person.
Maybe they might be slightly above the norm in the past, regarding intelligence, but that bell curve flattened out in the early 2000's. Shit, you rarely need to manage memory anymore.
Shit, I forgot no one's writing raw assembly anymore
We delved too greedily and too deep.
You don't even need to make sure your IRQ ports don't clash.
Lack of diversity can create stagnation problems and biases that go unchallenged, which is why you see communities with barriers of entry always seem to have very specific kinds of cultures or attitudes.
For better or worse.
Intelligence isnt a linear scale. There are so many skills out there, so many things to learn. You might consider tech people more intelligent because the skills they have are the ones you recognise as intelligent.
Better than the generally illiterate echo chambers in other parts of my daily life.
I use Linux because I’m too tech illiterate for Windows, I needed something that just worked out of the box
Unbelievably based take
Techies are shaking and crying right now
since the front page consists of linux and survillance hate
or at least navigate a directory through the command line
Why, obviously. I mean who hasn't read through the ls(1) man page at least once?
You're telling me the average person doesn't read through obscure tech manuals in their free time? Are you sure?
of course not, the average person is lazy and uses tldr
It totally is. That's why I'm here. Depending on the server, you also get a side of non-authoritarianism and strong privacy beliefs.
About the time they get a list of services to pick for sign up, they lose interest or freeze, exhibiting decision paralysis. That one time they installed ImagineDragns.exe and the computer had to be taken to be cleaned, set them down a path of I don't know what this is, I won't touch it that keep us employed.
in a simplified phrase, fediverse is the linux of social media. I'm not saying this is good or bad.
The way I look at it is, the more echo chambers you are in and out of, the more complete of a picture you can get as a whole.
Yes, Lemmy is a certain kind of echo chamber. But you can't really be part of an online community these days that doesn't tend toward becoming one.
You just have to diversify to keep the thread. And Lemmy is a very important part of that diversification for me.
The comment section here is proof of the echo chamber part…
Tech literacy is following step by step instructions & having an IQ above room temperature? OK.
you are 100% correct, however, the longer im here, the more tech literate i become, the easier it becomes for me to explain it to others, and thus, the fediverse grows. word of mouth to those willing to take the plunge.
you cant force people to learn something, but being able to sell it convincingly helps, especially if you know what you are talking about, and arent abbrasive or judgemental.
linux community / privacy communities rock here.
also general conversation feels more honest and constructive. instead of the whole "WeLl AcTuAlLy!" type of shit you get on reddit. it happens, but nowhere nearly as much.
also, way less censorship. comparing feeds from lemmy to reddit, is like apples to oranges.
this feels like a much more human space to me.
We use arch btw.
The store I work at mostly hires immigrants. While I would say that the language barrier is squing things a little, my coworkers generally have never handled technology before, even if they were previously in a role that had a high level of education.
Take one of my coworkers for example. When she asked me what I was reading, my fumbled attempt to explain fanfiction might as well have been pure gibrish. She didn't even have a concept of a book that isn't educational, never mind not knowing the translation of "fiction". After explaining the concept, she said "Oh, like the Bible?"
I think I might have done a mental bluescreen at that one.
Even just this last week, she seemed to be genuenly confuzed when I explained that I was writing a book. She kept asking "oh, are you in school then?" as if the only reason to ever write stuff was for school.
Anyways, my point is; the average everyday person has likely never so much as owned a smartphone, never mind knows how to boot off a usb drive. It's not just an immigrant thing either, my familly is almost utterly unable to have conversations with me because they don't even recognize 3/4ths of the words I need to use to describe the concept I need to explain to explain why I was laughing at a meme.
meme tax!
Post the meme or story is invalid
Here's one, it certainly got a laugh out of me
How has nobody posted the geology XKCD yet?
Definitely very echoey in here.
Hello?
Hello?
Nah, I'm an idiot XD
Probably true but the amount of tech posts fade into insignificance compared to the 60 - 70% Trump/Musk did/says this stupid thing posts.
I know, and it's been going on for years.
Not everyone is american or wants to read about them 20 times per day.
I'm currently trying to usb boot an old Motherboard from 2011 that has a very early version of UEFI. Modern disk imagers do fancy partitions that aren't recognized by this ancient artifact. Just saying it can be challenging.
Nah, I'm only partially tech literate. I don't know how in the fuck to use a terminal or command line stuff.
But I know what HTTPS is and how to check the header of an email to know if its phishing. I know how to use and manage PGP keys (although I have zero people to communicate with so I end up never using it, in practice).
Boot from USB is just spamming one of the F1 F2 F11 F12 button repeatedly then select the USB, very easy, learned that in 2 minutes using a web search.
But don't ask me to set up a Lemmy Instance, I aint got the brain power for it, I'm likely to mess up setting up the security aspect of it then a hacker is gonna deface it like lemmy.world that time when they got hacked. I actually have zero clue on how to set up self-host stuff. I don't bother with a NAS, I just copy my photos, videos, movies, wikipedia .zim files via a USB cable directly to a portable SSD (I keep multiple copies of the same files). If I need my files on the go, I just take one of the SSDs and put it in my pocket. No NAS needed.
(Also NAS are kinda expensive, and you have to buy the drives separately, so the NAS thing is kinda just expensive stuff on top of the storage you already have to pay for, so I don't bother, I love my portable SSDs)
It's also why I think people say they don't want lemmy to change, that they want to filter out people, whenever the state of the platform is discussed, how it's not user friendly and properly thought out to be scalable.
If the normies and corpos overpower the nerds and weirdos, then Lemmy dies just like every platform before it.
As someone who is way too tech literate I would argue tech should be made more accessible. I wholeheartedly disagree with the walled garden approach, but the fact that I just had a conversation with my friends with the result of "but I won't use a password manager, because it's too complicated" is very eye opening.
Here's my setup for instance: Bitwarden, I log into my own server (which it self is kind of a hidden setting), then go into Settings > Autofill, check everything, grant a dozen obscure permissions (most people won't know what they are) and then sometimes it just doesn't work. Yet again sometimes it randomly loses said permissions and I have to grant them again, meaning I couldn't even help someone while setting it up, because eventually it might break.
People should be able to download a password manager of their choosing and then grant a "this is a password manager" option, which shouldn't be easily exploitable. Instead apps and websites should clearly declare login forms, but they don't really so these apps need a fuckton of permissions, over which we should obviously have granular control, so fucking password managers of all things become a powertool.
And these kinds of things happen ridiculously often, over way too much different tech stuff.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
If you don't host Bitwarden and use the extension, it pretty much is that easy out of the box. Some pages are ass and Bitwarden won't detect a login form, but in my experience, 9/10 times it works fine. You can and should harden the security settings for it, but for most people, vanilla settings are better than their current solution.
Autofill is still an issue though. I can't recall which settings are off by default but I found I need them a lot of times and so I always have to enable them and give accessibility permissions to Bitwarden, which sometimes it loses. It really annoys me and if it can annoy me it can't be used by people who don't want to deal with any tech that doesn't work out of the box.
I am not a programmer, not a geek, but just the ability to recognize problems and then find and implement the solution gives me the aura of an omniscient wizard. Simple things like: We have an automatic drying machine for work clothes here, but we haven't been able to use it for YEARS! A Google search, manual found. We now have the third coffee machine. They always break because of the chalky water. When we descale, the display still lights up: If I really go through the instructions in the manual step by step, it suddenly works. And that's before we get to any multiple screens or Excel problems with the sum function.
If you can interpret your car's manual, you're a hero. If you can also get hold of the vehicle's repair manual, then you're a wizard. And if you understand the sum function in Excel, then you are a danger to your supervisor.
When I first read this I thought the title was "tech illiterate" which I thought was a bit rude, but anecdotally true.
Sure we've got healthy linux and programmers communities, but I think most people are just regular degular folx.
i don't claim to have much computer knowledge, but people look at me like I have two heads when I suggest using a YouTube client without ads or download Blokada. Hell, the amount of people who don't use Firefox (or a fork of it) and uBlock Origing are insane
100%. Thats why I like it here hahaha
On the topic of echo chambers - At what point did we decide that a bunch of people over a wide geographical area with similar interests and a common code of standards/preferences of civility... Is a bad thing?
It's kind of how social clubs exist irl.
They are as tech literate as they are sport iliterate in my experience.
The fact that the community superbowl exists here to continue perpetuating a meme is peak irony. There are so few people interested in american football here that the intention has flipped, meaning a picture of an American football match would be funny.
can't code but can oddly setup a pretty fucking dope server
Because you're capable of following a set of instructions and when there's something you don't fully understand you try to look it up knowing you have the world's combined knowledge at your fingertips.
+1 to what atomic said. You could probably learn to code in relatively the same way you set up your servers; with some time and instructions. As long as you understand some fundamentals, coding isn’t that scary at all. Some languages can be tough, though :)
Sure but that's true for literally every person on the planet.
and the problem is?
Nobody here is able to give good tech advice
No it’s not.
…checkmate, mothafucka!
/thread
Back it up boys we're going home
Do you think creating a Lemmy account is that much harder then creating a reddit account (or any other website account)?
Yes it is. Because immediately you are faced with having to pick a server. And then grasp and navigate the fediverse, which depending on the use case is not as straightforward. There's generally more hoops to make things happen. Depending on the server you pick, the UI is not all that intuitive. And then you have things like mbin forks which swap terminology.
Yes because people from reddit are constantly asking how to do it and what an instance is
In my opinon its because there is an approval gap. When create a reddit account you open reddit > enter email and password > you're dropped into reddit on an unverified account.
For lemmy: you get linked to lemmy (could be any instance) then you press the sign up button and submit an application > then you wait for hours to days for that to be approved and you cant login during that period.
I think it's always going to be about 20% of the population (I'm guessing but I also don't think its a high percentage) that will always be tech literate ... or tech capable.
Everyone is skilled in some areas more than others. And the general population will always be like that no matter the era, generation or geography or capability or access.
I grew up poor in northern Ontario in Canada in an Indigenous community. I really have no real training to speak of, nor do I have any post secondary education ... I have high school but never had the opportunity to go further than that. But I have a good brain (at least I think I do) ... I learned about computer tech on my own - first learning how to use Windows, installing uninstalling stuff, then fixing updating, repairing and maintaining systems ... then drifted into the software cracking, windows cracking stuff ... then over to patching, fixing and maintaining hardware to just keep everything working ... I'm not wealthy, so I always had to figure stuff out on my own. Then once private software became too difficult, I went over to open source software with Linux and freeware and now build and repair and maintain my own systems and fix stuff for other people.
All the while, the majority of everyone else I knew never learned to do these things. I few of my friends are like me and did stuff on their own but not many (which is why I say 20%) .. the majority of everyone else just shell out money they don't have to buy $1,000 phones and $2,000 laptops to fix their problems.
I’ve been saying it’s an echo chamber for a while now and it makes me spend less time here.
I am a software developer so yes on the coding.
The reason I am still with .world is because I cant be arsed to figure out how to kove instance or remember hownI set it up.
I can copy command line prompts from forums and chatgpt to my newly linted linux pc...that I dont really use because I cant figure shit out.
Where's the meme of the wojack at the party standing in the corner saying "They don't even know how to boot from USB"
The average person probably couldn't figure it out because they don't care to. If you tell someone "Make a Lemmy account"ntheyll be confused. If you tell someone "Make an account at https://lemmy.world/" they'll figure it out. It's like if you give someone a puzzle but it's boring and they don't care to solve it, they're probably not gonna take the time to solve it.
Me being like "what does it mean to boot from a USB 👁️👄👁️"
Fr though, the account thing is not too far off. When I made my first account (when the Reddit thing happened, it was on lemm.ee) I absolutely didn't understand jack shit and what I was doing. I was very ready to throw in the towel. I didn't understand how to add communities, how to search for communities, anything. I still have problems grasping the whole server thing. (Or what a server is.)
So a lot of times I feel excluded here, or at least like an unallowed invader, or a feral maniac just running around, throwing stuff at a wall and looking for what sticks. But that's ok. I'm happy I'm still here and one day I might even know what a command line is.
mastodon is the same way; I feel like I'm in a linux fórum sometimes
I can confirm I can do the other things but can't do some form of coding or at least navigate a directory through the command line.
Strangely in work I'm the 'computer guy' as I can navigate Microsoft office.
Yeahh exactly right. Like IRL you're a tech guy but here you'd be on the lower end of the spectrum.
How dare you call me literate my accent is actively fucking me over with swapping As and Os. Also I am tech literate for old broken shit, I actively hate my phone because I can barely use it. Mostly because it spits me at every instance fuck you machine spirit! I don't want you to give me the news you are an over glorified MP3 player half the time!
It's been like this in some online communities since mIRC was popular. mIRC was not user friendly and people had to know how to access it, change servers, use commands. This seemed simple to me back then but most of my friends could not be bothered.
With Meta's slop, TikTok, and Reddit being so easy people rarely step outside those bubbles anymore.
I would bet money on the average person not even being able to create a Lemmy account without assistance.
I would, too. Because I've literally seen Reddit users complain that it's too hard when it's just as easy as signing up for Reddit outside of a few instances that make you jump through hoops to sign up.
So was Twitter way back in the day (I’m talking ~ 2006 when I still worked in tech news). In a similar way, I think it’s up to us canaries early adopters to help them learn.
There was a time when no one knew how to @ someone and the pound sign was still known as the pound sign. People learned (and yes, platforms got much better and more polished). They can learn again. But we teachers need patience and kindness when helping them.
I don't understand any of that shit. Nerd
I do read hardcopys of 2600 though
Yuck, hardcopy.
At least I can read . I'm just here to add to the echo chamber my friend
not sure how most do anything. echo? most need a button says 'click here'. can drag a horse to water...
Yep
2y ago (during the reddit app lockdown) there was a lot of groundswell for joining other communities. Quite a few people made how-to videos showing the process. Although I bet they're a little outdated now...
I've had someone I o kw mention this and it's true for me also. We underestimate our own skills and over estimate the general others.
One time my dad said he thought direct current was the future and alternating current was soon to be replaced. I legit heard dial up sounds in my head.
I think my dad's quite smart so that one was a little bit of a shock. We had a quick convo and both came away with a better understanding.
This seems contradictory to me being a narcissist asshole.
Continues mumbling to myself aggravated that someone put a giant pot in the bottom of the dishwasher blocking all the water from being able to reach anything above it.
I-feel-like-the-people-I-interact-with-irl-don't-even-know-how-to-boot-from-a-USB.-People-here-probably-know-how-to-do-some-form-of-coding-or-at-least-navigate-a-directory-through-the-command-line.-Stg-I-would-bet-money-on-the-average-person-not-even-being-able-to-create-a-Lemmy-account-without-assistance.
I mean creating an account is no different than creating any other online account so I have to think the average netizen can do that. navigating the command line is much more rare of a thing and coding more so although it does not take much command line before you might want to modify some home directory files and that leads to scripting. Booting from a usb setup already to do it I think is not toooo uncommon but setting up a usb drive to boot an iso you put on it is a different story. Your right though that given what the federation is Im guessing it likely has a tech ratio similar to slashdot I reckon.
Ditto. And they keep pumping up Linux and refusing to accept that not everyone is tech savvy.
Yeah thats true, but there are things that lemmy fights over. AI for example, theres a few AI enjoyers here. Linux v the world.
Its to be expected that the people who share this space are a little bit likeminded.
See even this is over my head. I have no idea what a tor network is. Maybe next year I will know more.
Yeah, there's a strong contingent of computer people here. I'm one. If I had been a twitter user, I'd be on Mastadon because the same thing happened there.
But, hopefully you can prune your topics to match your taste. It took me a little bit to filter out the stuff I didn't want and subscribe to the stuff I only found by accident and now my feed very much fits what I want to see. Mine involves tech. But it doesn't have to.
I filter out a lot of tech communities. I get it guys AI is a thing and the people here don't like the name "AI" I just wanna see some shit posts
I disagree. The amount of stagnant backwards ignorance about what AI and llms are and how they function would suggest to me there is only a cursory level knowledge of technology on this platform.
Like you said just enough to create a Lemmy account without assistance but not enough to understand the nuance of emerging tech.
High school kids and university students.
Those younger don't have a clue, people with jobs don't have a life, people with kids don't have time, people who are older don't give a damn.
"don't even know how to boot from USB"
Are you serious with this post?
“don’t even know how to boot from USB”
This is entirely accurate.
Are you serious with this post?
You're not giving any context for your incredulity or what you're asking is serious or not.
Most older computer users, as well as most younger users, do not interact with file systems or operating systems anymore, much less concern themselves with alternate boot options and other specific case examples. A lot of younger GenX and a good amount of Millenials have more exposure to traditional computers growing up and have a better chance of knowing some basics.
It's accurate though...
Yeah, most people I interact with probably don't even what what "boot" means in that context. Or at least a good chunk of them.
There are people in this thread saying they don't know how to do it.
That's me. I'm a fucking idiot when it comes to computer shit.
I feel like a goddamned wizard just opening up command prompt lmao.
So no, I've never booted from a USB. I definitely believe that I'm the minority on here though.
And I don't watch Star Trek either.
Why am I even here?
Yeah, it's a niche application that maybe 0.1% (optimistically) of computer users use
I've been banned like twice lol
This is where everyone from the old internet retreated to.
All we need now are instances that allow freedom of speech.
I just wish I could go one single day on Lemmy without the Linux bros yelling to the heavens and going on and on about Linux. If there’s one thing that makes me avoid it, it’s the fanboys here
Wait you don't use Linux?
Are you saying you hate me specifically???
Are you saying you support tech billionaires and think windows is good???
What the fuck stop being racist and delete this now!!
Oh no an echo chamber of people that know things or care about privacy. Do you really think I should go read 4chan or youtube comments to broaden my horizon?
"Literate" is being generous. This place is pure pop tech, and generally just regurgitates tech YouTube meta.
"youtube tech meta"
That's going straight into the folder
The average person is becoming MORE technologically illiterate, not less. The era of growing up with a home computer that required fiddling and dial up, etc is over. People grow up with phones and iPads and kids come to school not knowing how to use a mouse.
And for that reason alone I built a Linux PC for my 11 year old and told him to go to town figuring things out. (I supervise everything of course). Dude has been doing fantastic so far.
If he doesn't solve problems with chmod 777 then he's already more competent than the ops teams at my fortune 500 company
Cool. I'm old enough that in middle school I begged my Mom to take to the mall to buy Linux. I got a Red Hat Linux CD-ROM pack from a store called Babbage's. I couldn't download the ISO on our modem and I don't remember if we even had a burner at that point.
I grew up starting my computer use having to navigate DOS just before windows 3.11 was released. I work in tech today and I feel like just knowing about a lot of the automated things we take for granted today has given me a little bit of an edge.
I had to walk to school in the snow ten miles, both ways uphill!
In DOS time I learned how to type quickle because I had to type in
cd gamescd keenkeenas quickly as possible to minimise non-gaming time.I feel the same about things like irq. Useless but I feel knowing how they worked makes you closer to the hardware.
So a friend of mine went to a convention to show off his gaming project. The kids there were trying to touch the monitors to play the game. They didn't grab the keyboard and mouse. They didn't touch the controller. They touched the monitor. People's framework of what a computer is and what it's made of is completely different than what it use to be
Reminds me of my senior teaching days 15 years ago. Solitaire, same.exe and saddam.exe and whack.exe soon had those oldies clicking, double clicking and dragging.
Didn't think then that the situation could reverse.
Same still exists on Android and is still a brain twister.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.kubilayerdogan.samegamel
Even when I was like 4, I would've gone for the controller. I knew how to use it from Lego Star Wars. I knew how to use a keyboard, but I didn't play on pc, so I'd have had to have been told the controls.
Hate to say it, but that technical literacy from having to operate computers the difficult way was a small blip in history. So things are just kind of going back to "normal."
Now, the only real natural entry into "computing" is gaming. Pretty much everything else has to come through formal education, which is largely myopic and boring.
Don't think I've even worked with a gen Z engineer yet. I assume they exist.
I have worked with a few gen z interns/fresh grads, and some younger millennials (I am a 1990 kid) and its interesting... Some of them have been very successful at passing the tests but have no mechanical aptitude at all. Some have been technically literate on first glance, then proven to be just confidently incorrect. In general though, it seems they just didn't grow up being interested in how things worked like I did. It could be isolated to my small sample size or it could be a general trend. They also don't seem to make connections across disciplines as easily either but again, that could just be a time in service thing at this point and not a generational trait.
I have not been super impressed with the new ones we get when we get them, some of them have been quick learners though and have impressed me with their adaptability. I am a huge proponent of proper mentorships or rotational programs and that is something that seems to get overlooked with younger grads in my experience.
One thing that really annoys me though, is that when prompted with something they don't know, they will spit out some randome bullshit rather than say they don't know. Saying I don't know is a completly acceptable answer as long as it is followed up with "but I will find out" or "can you help/explain it". Falling back to a first principle approach and talking through it is also valid but just making up some shit doesnt fly with me.
They exist. They are capable of being smart and curious, but they're less inherently familiar with the "bleep bloops" as we are.
There's still a second natural entry, it is being critical and annoyed by corporate greed in apps, streaming services, ads, accounts for everything etc. The privacy/piracy entry.
I work with a lot of gen z engineers that are very competent
Back to what, exactly? At what point in the past was it easier to use a computer than it was in the late 90s? Unless you're talking about before computers, which doesn't really have any bearing on what's being discussed.
You are absolutely right, but let's be clear here... it's not so much the lack of keyboard and mouse that's the problem... it's that these touchscreen devices don't let you actually DO anything. The devices you can use a keyboard and mouse on ALLOW you to play, customize, make mistakes, and learn. There's no reason a touchscreen device couldn't provide that too, but iOS and Android specifically forbid you from learning anything - that's a recipe for security holes! And THAT's the real skill they lack. Real competence means bending the endless possibilities to your will - not just being given 5 of the most common ones and being locked out of the rest.
I'm extremely young, I don't know how shit works, like at all. Because stuff works pretty well nowadays. Cannot imagine not knowing how to use a mouse. It could not be simpler imo. Can't remember a time that I didn't know lol
Don't underestimate yourself. Just by posting here you have proven that you're more proficient than the average Joe.
You should spend some time trying to teach CAD to students in High School. My first couple of days with a new class involved teaching them that, No you can't use your finger, and then how to use a mouse.
Why there now exists "iPad Kid".
That a friend I know of has a lot of his kids entirely on smartphones, while their family PC is hidden behind cobwebs and dust; if they want a document printed they just go out to some print shop.
In fairness, it can be expensive to stock the holy water necessary to fend off the demons that inhabit all printers.
Imagine studying at uni for years to become a programmer, only to be replaced by a vibe coder with an iPhone.
But remember, hard work always pays off!
We all imagine that, is has yet to happen. Vibe coders can produce the spaghetti code of upwards of 10 unpaid interns! What value!
Wait, does that mean that we millennials are actually going to be remembered for something good ?^*
We better find a cool name... the golden generation of tech? The tech overlords?
^* obviously i think we are cool
And once again, Gen X is completely ignored
Exactly. Exposure to technology does not make you tech literate. Tech literate typically means engaged with new technologies.
For instance, people were using phones, fax machines, calculators, watches, etc when dial up came out. Those users were not considered tech literate.
The same happens today, an iPhone or Android user is not tech literate by default anymore.
Soon the era of hosting own VPN and tricking AI will start
i also notice they fall for the simplest scams too online,
There's simply no evidence of this
What's more, the prevalence of cheap, accessible technologies is having a host of knock-on effects. Case in point:
Feels like I'm listening to the Boomer complaining about kids today not knowing how to use a manual transmission.
I wouldn't say that data is definitive proof. The table is missing ages from 30-under 65 from the table (at least if you're not logged in, if there is a more complete table please share). Also not sure how good some of the questions are for determining tech literacy. Knowing that Elon Musk ran both Tesla and Twitter in April 2023 is more if you keep up with the news rather than knowing how to work a computer. Other ones are good like being able to identify 2FA or knowing what LLM/AI is capable of.
My wife is a teacher. Kids come to school without the ability to use keyboard and mouse which was not the case in the 90s. I also only drive manual :P
There have been some articles regarding beginning CS classes bring required to include teaching concepts like folder structures because a sizeable part of class was list on this concept.
To use your transmission analogy, it would be like truck driving schools now need to how to drive a manual transmission vehicle, which adds to the length of the class. Or all the company vehicles are manual and now the company has to deal with hiring new drivers who don't know how to drive stick but will say they know how to drive.
LMFAO, bruh, your categories are 18-29, and 65+.
Your Source literally entirely skips over the age group we're talking about. You're not proving strong literacy skills of any kind atm.
And writing skills are literally entirely different from understanding how a computer works and how to trouble shoot it. Can you name what activity Gen z is doing that's equivalent to texting that is teaching them how to trouble shoot computers that's different then the way millenials learned?
Because the whole point of that comic is that boomers learned to read and write using letters and books but look down at millenials when they read and write short messages to each other constantly, which is also practicing reading and writing. So what activity is Gen z doing that's learning how to trouble shoot things that millenials don't recognize as learning how to trouble shoot things?
(For the record I think the generation difference is wildly overblown in threads like this, but Im also not convinced that it's completely unreal, and I also think boomers still had somewhat of a point that that comic glosses over, and we're all now seeing it with our attention spans and vitriol).
Ehhh maybe true for the US where they had a solid early tech industry and then made some questionable decisions. I feel like in the rest of the world progress is steady but forwards. Generally young stem university students where I live have all done a programming unit and a technology unit and each year more is added to curriculums whereas older generations might not have been given quite such an extensive education.
Also tech literacy = using a mouse is peak uppity midlife techy person. Get the fuck outta here there are more trans women and femboys wearing thigh highs and running arch off of think pads then there ever were of y'all older tech elitists back in the day.
Thafuq?
Yea, young STEM university students are obviously going to be more technologically literate than their counter parts. That isn't a new thing and was true for the older generations too.
What questionable decisions are you talking about that the US made that you're insinuating set them back compared to the rest of the world? The US does have more tech classes now than when I was in school in the early 2000's. The problem is a vast majority of these kids coming up don't know how to use computers effectively. It's not just "using a mouse" that makes someone tech literate. Knowing how to navigate a mobile device, which is designed for ease of use to accommodate even the dumbest people, does not make someone tech literate. Some are power users, but most have nothing more than a surface level knowledge of how to use it. There's little to no troubleshooting skills.
All of those mobile devices are programmed by actual tech literate people that understand coding, the network stack, security, and the general inner workings of how computers work. This generation coming out now doesn't know any of that because they never use computers.
And lastly, holy fuck what's wrong with you? Jesus fucking Christ you just came out shooting in that second half. The person you replied to made a valid, factual point, and you apparently took that as a personal attack. What the fuck do trans people have to do with this? What a fucked up transition to make and shit to take. You need help, dude.
One time I said "Hey this TUI program works perfect on every single distribution and even BSDs, takes no performance issues ever, and just overall good program. I wanna check contributors on github."
It was all either anime or trans flag pfps.